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Work has far more power over us than the government does, with little pay-off


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#21 banner1124

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 06:05 AM

Some people may feel that way. If you don't like your job then you are free to find another.

Healthcare is expensive because it is heavily protected and paid for by third parties.

Healthcare is expensive because it's for profit.  When you have a profit motive in something that EVERYONE HAS to use that's just asking for high prices


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#22 EnochRoot

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 06:52 AM

Fascinating piece. 

 

 

An anti-statist streak runs through several of these thinkers, particularly the Levellers and Paine, who viewed markets as the bulwark against state oppression. Paine and Smith, however, would hardly qualify as hard-line contemporary libertarians. Smith believed that public education was essential to a fair market society, and Paine proposed a system of social insurance that included old-age pensions as well as survivor and disability benefits. Their hope was not for a world of win-or-die competition, but one in which open markets would allow individuals to make the fullest use of their talents, free from state monopolies and meddlesome bosses.

 
For Anderson, the latter point is essential; the notion of lifelong employment under a boss was anathema to these earlier visions of personal freedom. Writing in the 1770s, Smith assumes that independent actors in his market society will be self-employed, and uses butchers and bakers as his exemplars; his “pin factory,” meant to illustrate division of labor, employs only ten people. These thinkers could not envision a world in which most workers spend most of their lives performing wage labor under a single employer. In an address before the Wisconsin State Agricultural Society in 1859, Lincoln stated, “The prudent, penniless beginner in the world labors for wages awhile, saves a surplus with which to buy tools or land for himself, then labors on his own account another while, and at length hires another new beginner to help him.” In other words, even well into the nineteenth century, defenders of an unregulated market society viewed wage labor as a temporary stage on the way to becoming a proprietor.
 
Lincoln’s scenario does not reflect the way most people work today. Yet the “small business owner” endures as an American stock character, conjured by politicians to push through deregulatory measures that benefit large corporations. In reality, thanks to a lack of guaranteed, nationalized health care and threadbare welfare benefits, setting up a small business is simply too risky a venture for many Americans, who must rely on their employers for health insurance and income. These conditions render long-term employment more palatable than a precarious existence of freelance gigs, which further gives companies license to oppress their employees.


#23 karlydee2

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 06:57 AM

It is delusional to think that automation has done in manual labor. It has done in some of it but it has a long, long ways to go. Work is going to be around for a while.

 

What types of manual labor have  *** not *** been replaced by automation in at least one instance?

 

Not even the oldest profession has escaped automation


Edited by karlydee2, 21 April 2017 - 06:59 AM.


#24 hst2

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 07:28 AM

Some people may feel that way. If you don't like your job then you are free to find another.

Healthcare is expensive because it is heavily protected and paid for by third parties.

 

 

Go from one repressive workplace to another. That is no solution, and you know it.

 

Work, the cornerstone of your sainted private property, which, in turn, is your source of personal liberty, serves more to enslave than to liberate.


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#25 SemiAuto

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 01:55 PM

Go from one repressive workplace to another. That is no solution, and you know it.
 
Work, the cornerstone of your sainted private property, which, in turn, is your source of personal liberty, serves more to enslave than to liberate.


That you are your own owner is not so much sainted as it is basic human decency. That is the cornerstone of personal liberty. What you do with it and the results you get are up to you. How that is enslaving is a mystery.

#26 SemiAuto

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 01:58 PM

What types of manual labor have  *** not *** been replaced by automation in at least one instance?
 
Not even the oldest profession has escaped automation


Let me try it this way. Does the US have more automation now than in, say 1900? Is the average person better off now than in 1900? Pick a more recent date if you want, 1950, 1975.

Technological advancement does displace some workers but on the whole it has been a godsend.

#27 veritas

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 02:04 PM

That you are your own owner is not so much sainted as it is basic human decency. That is the cornerstone of personal liberty. What you do with it and the results you get are up to you. How that is enslaving is a mystery.

To people grounded in equality of outcome, any variation such as a free market (not to mention human differences) elicits, equals unfairness or enslavement.  What they really want is what Churchill called the equal sharing of misery. (ie. socialism)


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#28 hst2

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 02:44 PM

To people grounded in equality of outcome, any variation such as a free market (not to mention human differences) elicits, equals unfairness or enslavement.  What they really want is what Churchill called the equal sharing of misery. (ie. socialism)


Yeah, why should the 1% suffer and make it unanimous?
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#29 Rael

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 03:11 PM

Healthcare is expensive because it's for profit.  When you have a profit motive in something that EVERYONE HAS to use that's just asking for high prices

How expensive do you think health care would be if there was no such thing as insurance?


Pessimism is just an ugly word for 'pattern recognition'.

#30 hst2

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 03:13 PM

How expensive do you think health care would be if there was no such thing as insurance?


Like in the rest of the western world where it is a fraction of our cost?
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#31 Rael

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 03:21 PM

Like in the rest of the western world where it is a fraction of our cost?

Insurance by the government is still insurance. 


Pessimism is just an ugly word for 'pattern recognition'.

#32 banner1124

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 03:25 PM

How expensive do you think health care would be if there was no such thing as insurance?

I don't know... but since I never suggested such a thing I'm not sure how the question is relevant


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#33 karlydee2

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 08:21 PM

Let me try it this way. Does the US have more automation now than in, say 1900? Is the average person better off now than in 1900? Pick a more recent date if you want, 1950, 1975.

Technological advancement does displace some workers but on the whole it has been a godsend.

 

That wasn't your argument.

 

I never thought you would be a goalpost mover. SMDH

 

The average worker in the us does no labor that would have been considered manual 100 years ago.

 

As of 2014 80%  perform in service industries  60% are in the professions, sales, education, government, or healthcare.

 

https://www.bls.gov/...p_table_201.htm

 

But to use a twist on your phrase:

 

Does the average person have a higher ratio of leisure time to actual manual labor as automation has increased?

 

As automation has increased, has the number of service industry workers as a % of the whole increased?

 

Follow the math and you will see that as automation increases, so does leisure time.

 

As automation increases, manual labor decreases.

 

There is an asymptotic decline in the necessity of human labor.

 

At some point it will actually become zero.  Human females will not actually have to gestate and birth progeny, artificial uteri will suffice.

 

Humans will only perform manual labor by choice.

 

The pace of advancement is exponential.

 

In less than 30 years, the creative arts will be the only thing humans do better than automated machines and machine intelligence.

 

There will be no need for traditional work.


Edited by karlydee2, 21 April 2017 - 08:27 PM.


#34 Rael

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 09:04 PM

I don't know... but since I never suggested such a thing I'm not sure how the question is relevant

Just asking a question related to why it is expensive. Not looking for a zero sum argument.
Pessimism is just an ugly word for 'pattern recognition'.

#35 Dr Johnny Fever

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Posted 21 April 2017 - 11:55 PM

That wasn't your argument.
 
I never thought you would be a goalpost mover. SMDH
 
The average worker in the us does no labor that would have been considered manual 100 years ago.
 
As of 2014 80%  perform in service industries  60% are in the professions, sales, education, government, or healthcare.
 
https://www.bls.gov/...p_table_201.htm
 
But to use a twist on your phrase:
 
Does the average person have a higher ratio of leisure time to actual manual labor as automation has increased?
 
As automation has increased, has the number of service industry workers as a % of the whole increased?
 
Follow the math and you will see that as automation increases, so does leisure time.
 
As automation increases, manual labor decreases.
 
There is an asymptotic decline in the necessity of human labor.
 
At some point it will actually become zero.  Human females will not actually have to gestate and birth progeny, artificial uteri will suffice.
 
Humans will only perform manual labor by choice.
 
The pace of advancement is exponential.
 
In less than 30 years, the creative arts will be the only thing humans do better than automated machines and machine intelligence.
 
There will be no need for traditional work.


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#36 demopublican

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 03:35 AM

Little payoff? My work pays off very well.

"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." — Steve Earle.

Disclaimer: I hate the Democrats and the Republicans but I am a registered Democrat. That way I can vote against O'Malley more often.


#37 jdsample

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 03:50 AM

"...we often speak of employment contracts as agreements between equals, as if we are living in Adam Smith’s eighteenth-century dream world.... But such characterizations...do not reflect reality; most workers agree to employment without any negotiation or even communication about their employer’s power or its limits. The exceptions to this rule are few and notable: top professional athletes, celebrity entertainers, superstar academics, and the (increasingly small) groups of workers who are able to bargain collectively....employment contracts create the illusion that workers and companies have arrived at a mutually satisfying agreement, the increasingly onerous restrictions placed on modern employees are often presented as “best practices” and “industry standards,” framing all sorts of behaviors and outcomes as things that ought to be intrinsically desired by workers themselves.


...The rise of staffing or “temp” agencies...undercuts the very idea of a direct relationship between worker and employer.... millions of workers now labor under subcontracting arrangements, which give employers even greater latitude to abuse employees.... much “temp” work is not even temporary. Employees sometimes work for years in a single workplace, even through promotions, without ever being granted official status as an employee. Similarly, “gig economy” platforms like Uber designate their workers as contractors rather than employees, a distinction that exempts the company from paying them minimum wage and overtime. Many “permatemps” and contractors perform the same work as employees, yet lack even the paltry protections and benefits awarded to full-time workers.

https://newrepublic....ted-states-work

Time to get rid of idea that work means personal liberty. It doesn't.

 

By all means quit your job.  


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#38 jdsample

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 03:51 AM

Healthcare is expensive because it's for profit.  When you have a profit motive in something that EVERYONE HAS to use that's just asking for high prices

Sort of like income tax.


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We are all Keynesians now.
Richard M. Nixon

Cynicism--the intellectual cripple's substitute for intelligence.
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Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength.
Eric Hoffer

#39 mlatoman

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 05:34 AM

How are those not enslaved by <gasp!> work faring? Better than most? :P
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#40 hst2

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Posted 22 April 2017 - 07:39 AM


"A six-hour workday could make you happier, healthier and more productive"

https://www.washingt...m=.95a16188ab6a
"It is even harder for the average ape to believe that he has descended from man. - HL Mencken




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