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pitbull

Is it time for Big Dan to blow it up & rebuild?

90 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Hate to say it, but the majority of this forum's members predicted this Pitching Staff would be garbage. And it is, in fact it's like stuffing 15 pounds of crap into a 10-pound bag.

Big Dan has shown he is unable to fix this woe. The shuttle back and forth to Norfolk isn't working. As another member of this forum pointed out today, six of the team's 12 pitchers have ERA's near 6.00. That would be cause for concern in April, it's now mid-June!

The team's best chance at winning the World Series, as everyone knows, was in 2014 and 2015. Machado & Wieters were injured for most of year and didn't compete in the Playoffs. Big Dan proved then he didn't have the creativity to find competent, Major League replacements.

Months later, he let three of our best players go & basically dismantled a division championship team.

Thats what scares me about letting him oversee a rebuilding project. Trumbo, Hardy, Jones, O'Day (when he is off DL), Miley, Tillman and anyone who isn't past their prime should be put on the market.

Let the younger players like Mancini and Rickard play every day. For Heaven sakes, they might actually learn how to his situationally, and manufacture runs without hittimg the ball over the fence. 

I just wonder whether Big Dan has the creativity to over see a rebuilding project, given his inability - and the Scoutimg Deparment's inability - at developing competent Major League pitching.

Edited by pitbull

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Dan isn't here to rebuild so no. He would be let go first.

That's why losing draft picks is no biggie to him.

My guess is we evaluate around 2nd week of June and if we are below .500, we might trade a few pieces but nothing like what NEEDS to be done.

 

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21 minutes ago, pitbull said:

Hate to say it, but the majority of this forum's members predicted this Pitching Staff would be garbage. And it is, in fact it's like stuffing 15 pounds of crap into a 10-pound bag.

Big Dan has shown he is unable to fix this woe. The shuttle back and forth to Norfolk isn't working. As another member of this forum pointed out today, six of the team's 12 pitchers have ERA's near 6.00. That would be cause for concern in April, it's now mid-June!

The team's best chance at winning the World Series, as everyone knows, was in 2014 and 2015. Machado & Wieters were injured for most of year and didn't compete in the Playoffs. Big Dan proved then he didn't have the creativity to find competent, Major League replacements.

Months later, he let three of our best players go & basically dismantled a division championship team.

Thats what scares me about letting him oversee a rebuilding project. Trumbo, Hardy, Jones, O'Day (when he is off DL), Miley, Tillman and anyone who isn't past their prime should be put on the market.

Let the younger players like Mancini and Rickard play every day. For Heaven sakes, they might actually learn how to his situationally, and manufacture runs without hittimg the ball over the fence. 

I just wonder whether Big Dan has the creativity to over see a rebuilding project, given his inability - and the Scoutimg Deparment's inability - at developing competent Major League pitching.

A lot of our guys have zero and I mean zero trade value. Being hurt, unproductive and a big salary is not going to draw much interest.

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I strongly disagree. We have tons of guys with trade value.

Bundy 

Gausman (we can't develop pitchers and people know this)

Britton if healthy (big if)

Brach

Manny (biggest trade value in MLB quite possibly)

Hardy has value perhaps for a contender based on D alone

Kim has some value

Castillo is cheap

Givens has lots of value 

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Posted (edited)

6 minutes ago, dshawg1 said:

I strongly disagree. We have tons of guys with trade value.

Bundy 

Gausman (we can't develop pitchers and people know this)

Britton if healthy (big if)

Brach

Manny (biggest trade value in MLB quite possibly)

Hardy has value perhaps for a contender based on D alone

Kim has some value

Castillo is cheap

Givens has lots of value 

Yeah you are right if you are counting some of the younger guys you should keep to build around.  I guess I was thinking of guys like Hardy, Tilly, UJ, ect.  I mean even Britton is iffy now since he is hurt. And some guys like Machado and Gausman you would be trading pennies on the dollar because they have sucked this year.

Edited by CROUSEMAN

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A rebuild is going to take a while.

They don't have the assets or the prospects to turn things around quickly.

And the player development people they have in place probably aren't up to the task.

 

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22 minutes ago, CROUSEMAN said:

Yeah you are right if you are counting some of the younger guys you should keep to build around.  I guess I was thinking of guys like Hardy, Tilly, UJ, ect.  I mean even Britton is iffy now since he is hurt. And some guys like Machado and Gausman you would be trading pennies on the dollar because they have sucked this year.

Manny's better than his numbers this year. He's simply got to get back to putting the barrel on the ball again. It's like he's been getting under pitches all year. 

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Just now, EnochRoot said:

Manny's better than his numbers this year. He's simply got to get back to putting the barrel on the ball again. It's like he's been getting under pitches all year. 

WBC takes a toll. 

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10 minutes ago, dshawg1 said:

WBC takes a toll. 

Dominican Republic

  • Jose Bautista, OF, Blue Jays
  • Adrian Beltre, INF, Rangers
  • Dellin Betances, P, Yankees
  • Robinson Cano, INF, Mariners
  • Alex Colome, P, Rays
  • Nelson Cruz, OF, Mariners
  • Manny Machado, INF, Orioles
  • Starling Marte, OF, Pirates
  • Carlos Martinez, P, Cardinals
  • Nomar Mazara, OF, Rangers
  • Marcell Ozuna, OF, Marlins
  • Gregory Polanco, OF, Pirates
  • Alex Reyes, P, Cardinals
  • Jose Reyes, INF, Mets

How many of those players are performing like Manny 

 

This isnt a WBC thing this is i want to show im the bkeep thing

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Posted (edited)

The OP's memory, selective as it may be, is a little flawed in spots.

Machado was injured in August of 2014, past the trade deadline, meaning that no significant help was coming from the outside. Thing is, after Machado went down, the Orioles finished 23-13 and clinched the division on September 16. Caleb Joseph and Nick Hundley probably didn't add up to Wieters, but the two combined for 14 homers and close to 50 RBI in a platoon situation, which isn't bad. (Anyone remember earlier Orioles platoons of Elrod and Ethebarren, or Dempsey and Skaggs? Not a Bench or Fisk among them, but they were productive enough.)

The Orioles also lost to Chris Davis to a PED suspension and Steve Pearce, given the chance to play every day, filled in admirably with a career year. 

Just trying to set the record straight a bit.

If the Orioles are going to be sellers this year, then what type of sell are we talking about? Is it a full-blown fire sale or just a salary sell-off on free-agents-to-be? If it's the former, then moves need to be made in advance of the deadline other teams start doing the same thing and there's the danger of having more of a buyer's market than that of a seller. Should that be the case, then everyone not under team control for the next several years (meaning just reaching arbitration eligibility) needs to be made available for the right price. Yes, that includes Manny. He might be hitting some 70 points under his career average right now, but he's the biggest trade chip by far that the Orioles currently possess.

Should the Orioles look to simply unload players in the final year of their contract, then I don't see much coming back this way. Smith and Kim might bring something back from teams looking to add outfield depth, but they certainly aren't going to fetch any blue-chippers. You'd probably have a hard time getting a second bucket of baseballs from anyone for Tillman right now, so if that's the case, I'd be inclined to hold on to him rather than just give him away. Miley's ERA is probably a bit of a mirage, given his rather high WHIP, but a contender in a more pitcher-friendly ballpark might bite on him. Brach is likely the most valuable asset out of the bullpen right now. He's pitched very well of late, and given that he isn't free-agent eligible until after 2018, he wouldn't be a two-month rental.

(Hell, I'd listen to offers for Bundy. I'd have to be overwhelmed, but if someone was willing to give me a cost-controlled major leaguer as well as a couple of highly-regarded prospects, I'd have to consider pulling the trigger.)

Someone mentioned Trumbo as a trade chip, but his market is going to be limited since he can block a trade to seven teams. He likely isn't going to attract much attention from NL teams to begin with, and assuming several of those clubs are in the AL, the trade possibilities are going to be somewhat restricted.

 

Edited by mdrunning

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They don't have the big name players that bring back top prospects. That and Angelos will wait until its too late to throw in the towel.

They really need to shake up the scouting dept. They draft for crap. How is it teams have top prospects & the O's have none.

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I've said for years that when the core MacPhail assembled and that DD inherited begins to falter, the team will sink like a stone.

 

It's happening, and DD's utter failure to add core pieces is beginning to be revealed.

Sucks to be right.

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12 minutes ago, Slidemaster said:

I've said for years that when the core MacPhail assembled and that DD inherited begins to falter, the team will sink like a stone.

 

It's happening, and DD's utter failure to add core pieces is beginning to be revealed.

Sucks to be right.

Here's my two cents: I know I sound harsh on DD, but I really don't think he is a bad GM. I think he is atrocious when it comes to evaluating and assembling an above-average starting pitching staff. He is good with depth (something AM was just terrible with). Both aren't bad GM's, but neither great. AM is good for a "blow it up" scenario only. He has no clue how to compete long term.

DD doesn't want to be here for one. He wanted to go to Toronto-most realize this. His SP moves (which I have listed) are quite documented. He can't evaluate starting pitching for whatever reason.

What happens if you and I can't do something at work? Usually the boss will have someone help us out. You can't be great at everything honestly. DD should have reached out or hired someone better than him at evaluating starting pitching talent. But that doesn't seem to have happened.

AM wasn't a great GM. He made great trades. 

DD is much better than AM as a whole, but still has huge deficiencies. Of course, it's hard to evaluate an Orioles GM with the Angelos family lurking...but I don't think it would have mattered much either way...DD isn't a Theo or Cashman. (side note-notice how Cashman took advantage of the strong reliever market last year by trading Chapman while still remaining competitive?...take note Orioles)

If I were king for a day...I would probably first evaluate if Britton has a shot at coming back. I would do the same with Tillman. Our schedule gets easier now...something to consider. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking this team is a World Series contender as is not matter how hot we get again.

If you are going to trade Manny...and man-you would get a HAUL of prospects!!!.....make sure you have the right people in place to make those moves. DD is not the right GM for those "blow it up" type moves quite simply.

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26 minutes ago, Slidemaster said:

I've said for years that when the core MacPhail assembled and that DD inherited begins to falter, the team will sink like a stone.

 

It's happening, and DD's utter failure to add core pieces is beginning to be revealed.

Sucks to be right.

Don't forget Buck has his thumb in the personnel soup as well.  I'm sure he pushed to have "his guys" resigned - Hardy, O'Day, Davis , Trumbo.  Buck likes his guys.  With that being said, this arrangement between DD, Buck and Brady has worn thin.  Yeah they have had some great regular season success, but that's about where it ends except for 2014. Came up short there as well. 

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1 hour ago, mdrunning said:

The OP's memory, selective as it may be, is a little flawed in spots.

Machado was injured in August of 2014, past the trade deadline, meaning that no significant help was coming from the outside. Thing is, after Machado went down, the Orioles finished 23-13 and clinched the division on September 16. Caleb Joseph and Nick Hundley probably didn't add up to Wieters, but the two combined for 14 homers and close to 50 RBI in a platoon situation, which isn't bad. (Anyone remember earlier Orioles platoons of Elrod and Ethebarren, or Dempsey and Skaggs? Not a Bench or Fisk among them, but they were productive enough.)

The Orioles also lost to Chris Davis to a PED suspension and Steve Pearce, given the chance to play every day, filled in admirably with a career year. 

Just trying to set the record straight a bit.

If the Orioles are going to be sellers this year, then what type of sell are we talking about? Is it a full-blown fire sale or just a salary sell-off on free-agents-to-be? If it's the former, then moves need to be made in advance of the deadline other teams start doing the same thing and there's the danger of having more of a buyer's market than that of a seller. Should that be the case, then everyone not under team control for the next several years (meaning just reaching arbitration eligibility) needs to be made available for the right price. Yes, that includes Manny. He might be hitting some 70 points under his career average right now, but he's the biggest trade chip by far that the Orioles currently possess.

Should the Orioles look to simply unload players in the final year of their contract, then I don't see much coming back this way. Smith and Kim might bring something back from teams looking to add outfield depth, but they certainly aren't going to fetch any blue-chippers. You'd probably have a hard time getting a second bucket of baseballs from anyone for Tillman right now, so if that's the case, I'd be inclined to hold on to him rather than just give him away. Miley's ERA is probably a bit of a mirage, given his rather high WHIP, but a contender in a more pitcher-friendly ballpark might bite on him. Brach is likely the most valuable asset out of the bullpen right now. He's pitched very well of late, and given that he isn't free-agent eligible until after 2018, he wouldn't be a two-month rental.

(Hell, I'd listen to offers for Bundy. I'd have to be overwhelmed, but if someone was willing to give me a cost-controlled major leaguer as well as a couple of highly-regarded prospects, I'd have to consider pulling the trigger.)

Someone mentioned Trumbo as a trade chip, but his market is going to be limited since he can block a trade to seven teams. He likely isn't going to attract much attention from NL teams to begin with, and assuming several of those clubs are in the AL, the trade possibilities are going to be somewhat restricted.

 

Where is Davis in the trade bait scenario??  I have him as zero value.  O'Day is a guy you would love to move, but with his bum shoulder and 20mil left on deal, I'd say he is almost zero value.   Jones, Brach, Castillo and Smith have some decent value if you want to completely throw the towel in.  You have to keep guys like Bundy, Schoop, Givens. I'd hang on to Many and Britton and see if they have rebuilt some value for the winter.

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3 minutes ago, CROUSEMAN said:

Where is Davis in the trade bait scenario??  I have him as zero value.  O'Day is a guy you would love to move, but with his bum shoulder and 20mil left on deal, I'd say he is almost zero value.   Jones, Brach, Castillo and Smith have some decent value if you want to completely throw the towel in.  You have to keep guys like Bundy, Schoop, Givens. I'd hang on to Many and Britton and see if they have rebuilt some value for the winter.

Jones is a 10-and-5, which affords him full no-trade protection.

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1 hour ago, Slidemaster said:

I've said for years that when the core MacPhail assembled and that DD inherited begins to falter, the team will sink like a stone.

 

It's happening, and DD's utter failure to add core pieces is beginning to be revealed.

Sucks to be right.

Most of you guys wanted AM gone too

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6 minutes ago, bleedingorangeandblack said:

Most of you guys wanted AM gone too

The facts speak for themselves: MacPhail had no (zero) winning seasons at the helm.

But on the other hand, the facts also speak for themselves: the core of this squad, which has qualified for the playoffs in 3 out of five seasons, was assembled by MacPhail.

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2 minutes ago, pitbull said:

The facts speak for themselves: MacPhail had no (zero) winning seasons at the helm.

But on the other hand, the facts also speak for themselves: the core of this squad, which has qualified for the playoffs in 3 out of five seasons, was assembled by MacPhail.

Which means he was run out of town for no reason?

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?????

He wasn't "run out of town," he quit.

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1 hour ago, mdrunning said:

Jones is a 10-and-5, which affords him full no-trade protection.

That's cool.  He probably wasn't going to be moved anyway. And as I said Hardy's 14 mil option kicks in if he is traded.  So he is a zero.

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Big Dan's gotta do something. The good ole days are over...and he had a lot of you fooled!!!

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6 minutes ago, pitbull said:

Big Dan's gotta do something. The good ole days are over...and he had a lot of you fooled!!!

Fooled about what?

There isn't one person, not one, on this board who thought Tillman and Gausman would be this bad, or that Britton would miss most of the season.

That doesn't mean Duquette is immune from criticism, but I think some people are just looking for an excuse to pile on. The pigeons have come to roost, it seems, on the lack of pitching depth and a shallow farm system, but two of the guys who were solid--particularly down the stretch--now make you cover your eyes when they take the mound. Some of the issues that are surfacing this season, however, are not ones which anyone saw coming.

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2 minutes ago, mdrunning said:

Fooled about what?

There isn't one person, not one, on this board who thought Tillman and Gausman would be this bad, or that Britton would miss most of the season.

That doesn't mean Duquette is immune from criticism, but I think some people are just looking for an excuse to pile on. The pigeons have come to roost, it seems, on the lack of pitching depth and a shallow farm system, but two of the guys who were solid--particularly down the stretch--now make you cover your eyes when they take the mound. Some of the issues that are surfacing this season, however, are not ones which anyone saw coming.

Fooled that this 2017 squad was a "good" team.

The majority of people that post on this forum pointed out the team's many deficiencies, even with the 22-10 start (or whatever it was). 

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5 minutes ago, pitbull said:

Fooled that this 2017 squad was a "good" team.

The majority of people that post on this forum pointed out the team's many deficiencies, even with the 22-10 start (or whatever it was). 

Yes, all of us predicted that the No. 1 starter would be sporting an ERA of 8.00, the No. 2 starter wouldn't be any better, both the closer and best set-up man would be out, and the team's best player would be hitting some 70 points below his career average. Yes, we all saw that coming.

 

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