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Zach Davies & Ariel Miranda

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I also think this is where Buck may come into the equation. Buck's a great manager but he values experience over potential to a fault, especially when it comes to marginal guys like Miranda. Buck could have lobbied for a more experienced guy, like Miley before the trade was made.

I think Tyler Wilson could probably do what Davies has done in Milwaukee. I'm not bemoaning the loss of either of these guys but these little moves that show the carelessness of the organization when it comes to prospects and young, cheap controllable players.

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1 hour ago, Pickle20 said:

I also think this is where Buck may come into the equation. Buck's a great manager but he values experience over potential to a fault, especially when it comes to marginal guys like Miranda. Buck could have lobbied for a more experienced guy, like Miley before the trade was made.

I think Tyler Wilson could probably do what Davies has done in Milwaukee. I'm not bemoaning the loss of either of these guys but these little moves that show the carelessness of the organization when it comes to prospects and young, cheap controllable players.

I agree, if you're going to have a guy pitch to the tune of a 5+ ERA and a 1.7+ WHIP, at least pay him a salary that's commensurate to his talent and production.  

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Holy crap-not only did Bridwell just have another nice performance, did you guys know Zach Davies is 11-4 for the Brewers? My goodness...

 

LOL

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We could assemble two complete rotations out of guys the O's threw away that are worlds better than our current rotation.

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4 minutes ago, Pickle20 said:

We could assemble two complete rotations out of guys the O's threw away that are worlds better than our current rotation.

Jake Arietta (9 wins)

Zach Davies (11 wins)

Parker Bridwell ( 3 wins so far with Angels)

Eduardo Rodriguez

M Gonzo (4 wins but with White Sox) 5th starter

 

So yep, that was pretty easy.

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Posted (edited)

115-62

Is the combined Major League win/loss record of Baltimore Orioles pitchers who have been sent away in the last four years. Article from thebaltimorewire.com.   I havent read the article yet but was sent a snapshot from it, so I don't know if they're cherry picking specific pitchers or not but I believe it   

This is so outrageous it probably deserves its own thread, and subsequent head examinations of the front office executives 

Edited by BayAreaBmore

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8 minutes ago, BayAreaBmore said:

115-62

Is the combined Major League win/loss record of Baltimore Orioles pitchers who have been sent away in the last four years. Article from thebaltimorewire.com.   I havent read the article yet but was sent a snapshot from it, so I don't know if they're cherry picking specific pitchers or not but I believe it   

This is so outrageous it probably deserves its own thread, and subsequent head examinations of the front office executives 

Wow, that's mind boggling, here's the article you referenced:

http://thebaltimorewire.com/2017/07/15/baltimore-orioles-mlb-trade-rumors/

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5 hours ago, BayAreaBmore said:

Thanks.  Should be a mandatory read for every Oriole fan and employee of the organization. 115-62. Truly mind boggling.

The Miley for Miranda trade is unforgivable. Makes no sense. 

Not to rub salt in an open wound, but there were two other deals DD made in 2013-2014 that were not mentioned.  DD traded LHP Josh Hader and a first round comp pick (OF Derek Fisher) for Bud Norris.  Hader is now with the Brewers and is their top pitching prospect. He is in the bigs now in the pen and is pushing for a rotation spot.  Fisher is the Astros top OF prospect and made his bigs debut last month. 

And who can forget DD signed UJ and forfeited the 14th pick in the draft.  That turned out to be LHP Brandon Finnegon who is 16-15 with and ERA of 3.83 with the Royals and Reds.

 

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I just started reading this article, and a few lines in, I need to stop and post this line

Quote

Others are still hoping for rebounds from Kevin Gausman, Chris Tillman, to see more real Ubaldo Jimenez and a run at a playoff spot.

Ummm...we see the real Ubaldo, almost every start. WHo is this writer that he thinks the "real Ubaldo" is the guy who randomly, but far too frequently, pops up and manages to get beyond the 3rd inning.

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1 hour ago, CROUSEMAN said:

Not to rub salt in an open wound, but there were two other deals DD made in 2013-2014 that were not mentioned.  DD traded LHP Josh Hader and a first round comp pick (OF Derek Fisher) for Bud Norris.  Hader is now with the Brewers and is their top pitching prospect. He is in the bigs now in the pen and is pushing for a rotation spot.  Fisher is the Astros top OF prospect and made his bigs debut last month. 

And who can forget DD signed UJ and forfeited the 14th pick in the draft.  That turned out to be LHP Brandon Finnegon who is 16-15 with and ERA of 3.83 with the Royals and Reds.

 

Not to defend DD, but he never hid his philosophy on getting the O's competitive in a short amount of time.  Use minor league talent and draft picks to acquire major league talent to fill the holes and win now.  It worked great in 2012-2014 and we were all drunk on winning.  But there were a couple of folks who saw this approach as unsustainable.  I figured the hangover would start in 2019 . but it came early.  DD and the O's brain trust have just been awful since the ALCS.  One impact acquisition in Trumbo.  With the cupboard bare of pitching help from previous trades,  the team imploded this year. 

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1 hour ago, CROUSEMAN said:

Not to rub salt in an open wound, but there were two other deals DD made in 2013-2014 that were not mentioned.  DD traded LHP Josh Hader and a first round comp pick (OF Derek Fisher) for Bud Norris.  Hader is now with the Brewers and is their top pitching prospect. He is in the bigs now in the pen and is pushing for a rotation spot.  Fisher is the Astros top OF prospect and made his bigs debut last month. 

And who can forget DD signed UJ and forfeited the 14th pick in the draft.  That turned out to be LHP Brandon Finnegon who is 16-15 with and ERA of 3.83 with the Royals and Reds.

 

Bud Norris was an important piece of the 2014 team that won the division.  Does that not count for anything?  Oh right, hindsight GMs.

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, ivanbalt said:

Bud Norris was an important piece of the 2014 team that won the division.  Does that not count for anything?  Oh right, hindsight GMs.

No it does big time.  See my post that just went up on DD for 2012-2014.  He did what he had to do to get this team back in the playoffs.  And I like most folks was good with it.  I also realized the approach was unsustainable for a more than 5 or 6 years.  And the bill just came due this year.  It came early because DD and O's mgt have been horrible the last 3 years in player acquisitions.  You can't trade away that much young pitching and give away that many top draft picks (3 first rounders and 3 second rounders) in a 4 year period and not eventually tank it.  Guys get old and non=productive and then there is no back fill.

Edited by CROUSEMAN

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27 minutes ago, weird-O said:

I just started reading this article, and a few lines in, I need to stop and post this line

Ummm...we see the real Ubaldo, almost every start. WHo is this writer that he thinks the "real Ubaldo" is the guy who randomly, but far too frequently, pops up and manages to get beyond the 3rd inning.

One of Buck's biggest flaws as a manger and would be GM.  Loyalty to guys he likes, but can't play a lick.  The list is long.

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Just now, CROUSEMAN said:

One of Buck's biggest flaws as a manger and would be GM.  Loyalty to guys he likes, but can't play a lick.  The list is long.

Hence, the reason were aren't hearing an outpouring of cries to extend Buck. He's part and parcel with the last 5 years of winning. So I think he will hold a place in our baseball hearts. But this year's team seems to be the fully realized version of his designed high powered, high K rate, low OBP offense. Meanwhile, Kim literally has cobwebs on his uniform. The regular players have ~ 350 ABs; Kim has 118.     

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59 minutes ago, weird-O said:

Hence, the reason were aren't hearing an outpouring of cries to extend Buck. He's part and parcel with the last 5 years of winning. So I think he will hold a place in our baseball hearts. But this year's team seems to be the fully realized version of his designed high powered, high K rate, low OBP offense. Meanwhile, Kim literally has cobwebs on his uniform. The regular players have ~ 350 ABs; Kim has 118.     

Do fans usually "outpour cries" to extend a manager who is signed for another 15 months?

I also think people see the writing on the wall. 2018 is the expiration date of the run that began in 2012. It can't continue forever. 

If Buck wanted to stay on as manager, and oversee whatever comes after 2018 -- I'd be fine with keeping him on as manager. We're likely not going to find a better leader of men. However, manager is where must stay. I don't want him in the FO. He may do well there, actually, but I don't think his style of management translates well there. I just don't see him staying on as a manager past 2018.

 

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55 minutes ago, Pickle20 said:

Do fans usually "outpour cries" to extend a manager who is signed for another 15 months?

I also think people see the writing on the wall. 2018 is the expiration date of the run that began in 2012. It can't continue forever. 

If Buck wanted to stay on as manager, and oversee whatever comes after 2018 -- I'd be fine with keeping him on as manager. We're likely not going to find a better leader of men. However, manager is where must stay. I don't want him in the FO. He may do well there, actually, but I don't think his style of management translates well there. I just don't see him staying on as a manager past 2018.

 

Typically, fans don't like to see good managers in a lame duck contract. There's usually chatter about extending them. As for Buck's future, it doesn't seem to be widely known that he has already said that 2018 will be his last season as a field manager. I missed that comment myself, but it was brought up on the radio recently that Buck said that during spring training. I'm with you, I don't want to see him in a FO role. This team already bares his preferences. He's the one who pushed to pay Davis whatever it took to keep him, and he is the one who likes the all or nothing approach to the offense. And then there's Ubaldo still losing games for them. 

Barring the type of FA spending spree, that this ownership group hasn't invested in, since they first took over the team, I think the window has already closed. The starting line up is pretty well set for next season, with Joseph replacing Castillo. Bundy and Gausman are the only starting pitchers that will be here next season, unless DD shows complete apoplexy and picks up Miley's option (a very, very real possibility actually). They need 3 FA starters, including a #1 & #2. The 3rd can't be a #5 scrub, Gausman already provides that service. And since we all know how Pete feels about pitchers, and their $$$ worth to a team, buying 3 starters, that you'd want to see join the staff, at market value, is as likely as a Baltimore snow storm on the 4th of July.     

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They will try and bring Tillman back on the cheap :D  Yeah zero prospects ready to step in as starters next year, the window looks closed.  O's have no luck with FA starters. Just too many arms and too many draft picks traded/forfeited over the last 4 years.  Cupboard is bare for another 2 years or so. But hey we had a great 5 year run.  Let the hangover begin.

Edited by CROUSEMAN

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6 hours ago, weird-O said:

I just started reading this article, and a few lines in, I need to stop and post this line

Ummm...we see the real Ubaldo, almost every start. WHo is this writer that he thinks the "real Ubaldo" is the guy who randomly, but far too frequently, pops up and manages to get beyond the 3rd inning.

Thought about that also. No clue what he meant by that 

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7 hours ago, CROUSEMAN said:

Not to rub salt in an open wound, but there were two other deals DD made in 2013-2014 that were not mentioned.  DD traded LHP Josh Hader and a first round comp pick (OF Derek Fisher) for Bud Norris.  Hader is now with the Brewers and is their top pitching prospect. He is in the bigs now in the pen and is pushing for a rotation spot.  Fisher is the Astros top OF prospect and made his bigs debut last month. 

And who can forget DD signed UJ and forfeited the 14th pick in the draft.  That turned out to be LHP Brandon Finnegon who is 16-15 with and ERA of 3.83 with the Royals and Reds.

 

Definitely rubs salt in the wound. It's insane really when you look at all these young arms and their continued upside potential, then look at we're putting out there everyday and what's in line for the future. Pretty sad. 

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3 hours ago, CROUSEMAN said:

They will try and bring Tillman back on the cheap :D  Yeah zero prospects ready to step in as starters next year, the window looks closed.  O's have no luck with FA starters. Just too many arms and too many draft picks traded/forfeited over the last 4 years.  Cupboard is bare for another 2 years or so. But hey we had a great 5 year run.  Let the hangover begin.

I'd have no problem bringing Tillman back on the cheap.  He'll need that year to re-establish himself, and based upon past performance, he'd be worth another chance. 

He says he's not, but I have to think that he is still injured.  He may not feel it, but something isn't right.

Edited by Thirteen

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2 minutes ago, BayAreaBmore said:

Definitely rubs salt in the wound. It's insane really when you look at all these young arms and their continued upside potential, then look at we're putting out there everyday and what's in line for the future. Pretty sad. 

 

2 minutes ago, Thirteen said:

I'd have no problem bringing Tillman back on the cheap.  He'll need that year to re-establish himself, and based upon past performance, he'd be worth another chance. 

He says he's not, but I have to think that he is still injured.  He may not feel it, but something isn't right.

Agree if you can get him for 5th starter money. Of course if he can keep showing what he did last night, maybe 4th starter money.  One year pillow deal.

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15 minutes ago, CROUSEMAN said:

 

Agree if you can get him for 5th starter money. Of course if he can keep showing what he did last night, maybe 4th starter money.  One year pillow deal.

I'm not convinced that last night was the start of Tillman being fully back. But, if it is, he won't have to take a pillow deal. Pitching is just too valuable. Someone will take the chance on him.

However, if he's seeing offers that suggest his suitors aren't convinced that he's the guy we've prior to the injury, he would be wise to take the one year deal, then hit the market next winter, as a fully re-established pitcher. But he'd be betting on himself. Most guys (not all) take the best offer. 3 years at #3 money beats 1 year of #4, with the possibility of getting a 5 yr deal next go 'round. 

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