soulflower

Woman shot by the police after calling the police

114 posts in this topic

17 minutes ago, Guido2 said:

I have a question before I comment. In Great Britian/England how are the police organized. That is ....is there a general overseeing dept that sets the rules and guidelins for all the various towns etc. under them? Or what else.

Very important point/question before I go on.

There are 43 contabularies in the England and Wales and 8 Territorial constabularies in Scotland. The English and Welsh constabularies are overseen by  Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and the Audit Commission. The Scottish are overseen by the Scottish Parliament. 

Perhaps more importantly, is the police training and apprenticeship which is a 2 year training, before they become fully qualified. Obviously further training after that depending on which course they take - Uniform, CID, Traffic, Armed etc.etc. and then again for promotion with the force.

A regular 'Bobby' or Traffic cop would never find himself in the situation that this thread is about because they would no have been armed. Any British police officer that is armed is extremely well trained in the application of and use of his weapon/s.

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30 minutes ago, Guido2 said:

Well here is were it gets sticky....Are we talking about England? Great Britain? The United Kingdom?

If you have a few hours....this might be interesting to analyze.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_use_of_firearms_in_the_United_Kingdom

One thing....and I am sure WK can correct my assumptions. It's ok WK I am open to that. But at least in London proper, There seems to be two 'layers' of cops. The unarmed which appear to me to be recon if you will and heavily armed teams (like our SWAT teams) that are on duty at all times and just around the corner on every shift and deployed within blocks of each other.

Unlike our SWAT teams that have to be called up...and the cops (our recon if you will) are out there on their own for the most part.

WK I will be interested to hear your input. And I am not trolling....I would like  to hear it in an unvarnished way.

 

Each Constabulary has it's own 'Firearms Unit' we don't call them 'SWAT' or whatever. However, some uniform and many CID (plain cloths) are trained in arms use and can be 'tooled up' at the police station. Going back we used to have a 'Flying Squad' known as 'The Sweeny' (Sweeny Todd ;)), I was pally with a couple of them, they were always concealed 'tooled up'. They were, as were all the sweeny boys  very hard, they were the ones that dealt with the violent criminals. I'm not sure what branch covers their activity today, but the will be one and you wouldn't want to meet a pair of them in a dark ally, if you were a heavy villain.

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1 hour ago, Smokey 1 said:

A lot of departments have lowered their standards for hiring in the last 30 years.

If only it were that simple.  This stuff has been going on for at least that long, if not longer.  The only difference is that now we have 24/7 news and there are cameras everywhere so we actually see it when we didn't before.

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22 minutes ago, WKDWZD said:

There are 43 contabularies in the England and Wales and 8 Territorial constabularies in Scotland. The English and Welsh constabularies are overseen by  Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and the Audit Commission. The Scottish are overseen by the Scottish Parliament. 

Perhaps more importantly, is the police training and apprenticeship which is a 2 year training, before they become fully qualified. Obviously further training after that depending on which course they take - Uniform, CID, Traffic, Armed etc.etc. and then again for promotion with the force.

A regular 'Bobby' or Traffic cop would never find himself in the situation that this thread is about because they would no have been armed. Any British police officer that is armed is extremely well trained in the application of and use of his weapon/s.

Nicely done....thank you....hopefully it will also enlighten others here.

Correct me if I am wrong ....but this is what I am seeing...how England and Wales seems to work better than our cops.

  1. First an foremost; it appears that there is a very top down structured approach to all police functions in Eng/Wal. That all districts have rules and guidelines that apply the same way regardless of what district you are in. Which is unlike the US with most PDs acting independently and with self imposed 'standards'.
  2. Because of point 1. All officers in Eng/Wal have the same base line training....again regardless of district. Further unlike the US where training....well at least in MD....and across the nation the average is around 19 weeks as of 2006, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics.
  3. Is it fair for me to say that there are A LOT MORE armed British cops then the media and such lead us to believe? Seems like the 'image' of unarmed officers that the media here presents....is really traffic cops.....that call the real cops....that are armed. Thoughts?

But based on what you have stated ....in general....right off the bat.....2  years of training....vs less than 1/2 at best....well gee.... no wonder there are issues.

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29 minutes ago, WKDWZD said:

Each Constabulary has it's own 'Firearms Unit' we don't call them 'SWAT' or whatever. However, some uniform and many CID (plain cloths) are trained in arms use and can be 'tooled up' at the police station. Going back we used to have a 'Flying Squad' known as 'The Sweeny' (Sweeny Todd ;)), I was pally with a couple of them, they were always concealed 'tooled up'. They were, as were all the sweeny boys  very hard, they were the ones that dealt with the violent criminals. I'm not sure what branch covers their activity today, but the will be one and you wouldn't want to meet a pair of them in a dark ally, if you were a heavy villain.

This is very interesting....what we think in the US as British Cops and reality. Would it be fair to say that there are NOW a lot more armed cops around than the media lets on. Unfortunately the image we in the US gets is of cops with maybe a night stick and a whistle taking on all sorts of bad guys and being triumphant totally on their own. Not mine as you might have guessed BTW.

Is this a fair flowchart of the process in the event of an unarmed bobbie seeing something?

Unarmed cop sees something bad doesn't engage>calls for help> if an armed 'sweeny' is nearby they react>regardless of a 'sweeny' there are what we call SWAT teams pretty much within minutes of any given point say in London at a moments notice.

This is very interesting....thx for taking the time.

Ohhh an after thought....in general...in England....are the 'thugs' vs hardcore criminals more ahhhhhh polite? Sort of OK copper yah got me...put on the cuffs. VS what we got . Again just wondering.

Edited by Guido2

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8 minutes ago, Guido2 said:

Nicely done....thank you....hopefully it will also enlighten others here.

Correct me if I am wrong ....but this is what I am seeing...how England and Wales seems to work better than our cops.

  1. First an foremost; it appears that there is a very top down structured approach to all police functions in Eng/Wal. That all districts have rules and guidelines that apply the same way regardless of what district you are in. Which is unlike the US with most PDs acting independently and with self imposed 'standards'.
  2. Because of point 1. All officers in Eng/Wal have the same base line training....again regardless of district. Further unlike the US where training....well at least in MD....and across the nation the average is around 19 weeks as of 2006, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics.
  3. Is it fair for me to say that there are A LOT MORE armed British cops then the media and such lead us to believe? Seems like the 'image' of unarmed officers that the media here presents....is really traffic cops.....that call the real cops....that are armed. Thoughts?

But based on what you have stated ....in general....right off the bat.....2  years of training....vs less than 1/2 at best....well gee.... no wonder there are issues.

Yes, you have it pretty well nailed down except for #3. There certainly are more armed police than are obviously visible these days, however, the ones that you would see in uniform (and there are not enough of those today, but that's a gripe for a another day) will not be armed, nor will most of the Traffic police.

The recent London Bridge terrorists were all dead within 8 minutes of the first call, taken out by the Firearms Unit.

The terrorist that was neutralised after the Westminster Bridge attack was taken out by plain clothes cops (bodyguards) on duty in the Houses of Parliament, he would not have seen it coming, no time for a last shout of 'Allahu Akbar'. :D

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16 minutes ago, Guido2 said:

This is very interesting....what we think in the US as British Cops and reality. Would it be fair to say that there are NOW a lot more armed cops around than the media lets on. Unfortunately the image we in the US gets is of cops with maybe a night stick and a whistle taking on all sorts of bad guys and being triumphant totally on their own. Not mine as you might have guessed BTW.

Is this a fair flowchart of the process in the event of an unarmed bobbie seeing something?

Unarmed cop sees something bad doesn't engage>calls for help> if an armed 'sweeny' is nearby they react>regardless of a 'sweeny' there are what we call SWAT teams pretty much within minutes of any given point say in London at a moments notice.

This is very interesting....thx for taking the time.

Ohhh an after thought....in general...in England....are the 'thugs' vs hardcore criminals more ahhhhhh polite? Sort of OK copper yah got me...put on the cuffs. VS what we got . Again just wondering.

Unfortunately I can't split up your post on this new format so my answer may appear out of kilter.

Yes, there would be more armed police than are apparently evident.

The Bobby with his truncheon would call for back up an receive it quickly, however, it should be noted that a copper will always try to do his duty as did PC Keith Palmer, who succumbed to his fatal stabbing when trying to arrest the terrorist on Westminster Bridge.

I don't know if the armed villains are any more polite but I do think that when they are 'nabbed', they know it and if sensible they would go quietly.

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7 minutes ago, WKDWZD said:

Yes, you have it pretty well nailed down except for #3. There certainly are more armed police than are obviously visible these days, however, the ones that you would see in uniform (and there are not enough of those today, but that's a gripe for a another day) will not be armed, nor will most of the Traffic police.

The recent London Bridge terrorists were all dead within 8 minutes of the first call, taken out by the Firearms Unit.

The terrorist that was neutralised after the Westminster Bridge attack was taken out by plain clothes cops (bodyguards) on duty in the Houses of Parliament, he would not have seen it coming, no time for a last shout of 'Allahu Akbar'. :D

Well not to put to fine a point on #3 but actually I think I am correct by your own admission.

The images that is presented is what you call 'traffic cops' not 'real cops' in our terms. The traffic cops have no visible firearms and frankly as you describe them they are like our meter maids.

However.....here..... the media is always pounding the table about unarmed british police.....where when you come down to it....if I am reading you correctly....they are only 'traffic cops' which don't really fall into the category of handling bad guys.

I am not dismissing what they do....but is it fair to say I am on the right track here?

Also.... I like the fact that the 'gun squads' you have don't F around....one shot one kill....sorry no negotiating.

BTW again I really appreciate the dialog......best one I have ever had here on the forum.

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12 minutes ago, Guido2 said:

Well not to put to fine a point on #3 but actually I think I am correct by your own admission.

The images that is presented is what you call 'traffic cops' not 'real cops' in our terms. The traffic cops have no visible firearms and frankly as you describe them they are like our meter maids.

However.....here..... the media is always pounding the table about unarmed british police.....where when you come down to it....if I am reading you correctly....they are only 'traffic cops' which don't really fall into the category of handling bad guys.

I am not dismissing what they do....but is it fair to say I am on the right track here?

Also.... I like the fact that the 'gun squads' you have don't F around....one shot one kill....sorry no negotiating.

BTW again I really appreciate the dialog......best one I have ever had here on the forum.

The traffic boys would rightly be very offended to be likened to meter maids (parking meter guys have no real police powers), perhaps I should refer to them as ''mobile units', they are uniform police that are usually the first responders to any 999 call and probably the nearest unit in likeness to the guys that this tread is about, they are they guys who will chase down whoever, their job isn't by any means a soft one , so on this you are not on the right track. Most of our actual traffic regulation these days is handled by speed cameras.

I have many police friends and with one exception, they all prefer not to carry guns and leave those to the heavy guys.

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6 minutes ago, WKDWZD said:

The traffic boys would rightly be very offended to be likened to meter maids (parking meter guys have no real police powers), perhaps I should refer to them as ''mobile units', they are uniform police that are usually the first responders to any 999 call and probably the nearest unit in likeness to the guys that this tread is about, they are they guys who will chase down whoever, their job isn't by any means a soft one , so on this you are not on the right track. Most of our actual traffic regulation these days is handled by speed cameras.

I have many police friends and with one exception, they all prefer not to carry guns and leave those to the heavy guys.

I had no intent to demean their work. But I hear traffic cop I hear meter maid or rent a cop. That is a US thing.

So it still sounds like they may and are expected to 'hand off' a big problem and that is part of the protocol with no ramifications on those cops as being 'chicken'. Unlike here.....John Wayne has been dead many years.....but.................

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2 hours ago, FatBoy said:

Here is a quote from you post; "Understandable they would be jumpy if startled by someone suddenly at the door of their car."

If you had read and comprehended the article, you would know that she was engaged in a conversation with the officer in the driver's seat at the time she was shot by the officer in the passenger's seat. 

I did read and understand it.  But on the face of it, it doesn't make sense.  And the only account by eye witnesses come from the shooter and his partner.  Does something NOT sound fishy to you?  I am merely speculating on what really happened.  

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4 minutes ago, Guido2 said:

I had no intent to demean their work. But I hear traffic cop I hear meter maid or rent a cop. That is a US thing.

So it still sounds like they may and are expected to 'hand off' a big problem and that is part of the protocol with no ramifications on those cops as being 'chicken'. Unlike here.....John Wayne has been dead many years.....but.................

There wouldn't be too many jobs that they would 'hand off" as, and here is probably where the real difference is, most criminals here are not armed, the traffic boys will handle anybody in that category. But sure, they don't take tasers to a gun fight. :)

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12 minutes ago, WKDWZD said:

There wouldn't be too many jobs that they would 'hand off" as, and here is probably where the real difference is, most criminals here are not armed, the traffic boys will handle anybody in that category. But sure, they don't take tasers to a gun fight. :)

Well that of ties back to your polite thugs and ours. Big difference. Don't you agree?

But your 2 years of training and top down police management I am sure makes a big difference as compared to the garbage we have going on here.

 

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41 minutes ago, Guido2 said:

Well that of ties back to your polite thugs and ours. Big difference. Don't you agree?

But your 2 years of training and top down police management I am sure makes a big difference as compared to the garbage we have going on here.

 

I think that the 'You can't electrocute a guy twice' effect also comes into it. ;)

ps... Thanks for the civil convo. :)

Edited by WKDWZD

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