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pitbull

Three-quarters through season & Zach Davies has realistic shot at 20 wins

23 posts in this topic

Meanwhile, we trot out Ubaldo today against a team whose starter who boasts an ERA over 8.00.

# # # # #

(Davies) hasn't been great; his 4.26 ERA is worse than his 3.97 mark from last year, when he went 11-7 in 28 starts. His strikeouts are down and his walks are up. Still, he has taken a step forward this last month and the run support has been there all year long.

 

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But man oh man did that Parra pay dividends in the playoffs!

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Said it before, his ERA through 4 starts was atrocious. Over the rest of his season it's mid 3... very good.

I'd love it if he wins 20. He won't, but if he could get to 18 that would be another nice stick in Dan's eye...

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When did wins become an indicator of a starter's worth on this board?

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3 hours ago, bmore_ken said:

When did wins become an indicator of a starter's worth on this board?

Depends on what point they're trying to make. ;)

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Duquette is the worst evaluator of starting pitching I have ever seen. It's awful. Is it 100% on him? or the fact we have the least number of scouts in all of mlb? or the fact we won't let people throw the cutter? or the % of offspeed vs. fastballs? or some other undiscussed topic? I don't know-but it's got to change, like yesterday.

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10 hours ago, bmore_ken said:

When did wins become an indicator of a starter's worth on this board?

When was the last time an Orioles pitcher won 20 games?

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The most logical explanation is its a variety of factors combined. Small scouting department, little / no value placed on the international market (even though arguably his two best pitching acquisitions were Chen and Gonzo, both plucked from foreign leagues), organizational philosophies that certain pitches aren't worthy of use instead of just treating each pitcher individually and letting them throw what they throw best, and then topped off by Buck's willingness to let certain veterans that he likes struggle (and hurt the team) MUCH longer than pretty much any other manager in the game...

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2 hours ago, pitbull said:

When was the last time an Orioles pitcher won 20 games?

1984 Mike Boddicker

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3 hours ago, pitbull said:

When was the last time an Orioles pitcher won 20 games?

Bedard could have won 20 if his team wasn't horrible.

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11 hours ago, mdrunning said:

Depends on what point they're trying to make. ;)

Obviously 

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3 hours ago, pitbull said:

When was the last time an Orioles pitcher won 20 games?

What does that have to do with my question?

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Chew on these numbers for a moment...

Consider 5 young / young-ish starting pitchers the Orioles have shipped away in the past few years, for debatable at best return... Miranda, Bridwell, Davies, Arrieta, and Rodriguez.

This season, those 5 are an average age of 26.5, have a combined 50-31 record, 4.05 ERA, and 1.27 WHIP.  

Consider 3 starting pitchers the Orioles thought it wise to add to the rotation... Miley, Jimenez, and Hellickson.

This season, those 3 are an average age of almost 32, have a 15-26 combined record, a 5.93 ERA, and a 1.59 WHIP.

I sort of don't care what Duquette has maybe done in the past to assemble starting pitching, his track record here is incredibly atrocious for the most part.  His two best starting pitching acquisitions were both treated as expendable, and were both plucked from foreign leagues (ironic for an organization that now seems militantly opposed to being aggressive in the larger international market).  And all this for a team that was until a few days ago just a game or so out of a WC game spot.

 

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46 minutes ago, Ravens2006 said:

Chew on these numbers for a moment...

Consider 5 young / young-ish starting pitchers the Orioles have shipped away in the past few years, for debatable at best return... Miranda, Bridwell, Davies, Arrieta, and Rodriguez.

This season, those 5 are an average age of 26.5, have a combined 50-31 record, 4.05 ERA, and 1.27 WHIP.  

Consider 3 starting pitchers the Orioles thought it wise to add to the rotation... Miley, Jimenez, and Hellickson.

This season, those 3 are an average age of almost 32, have a 15-26 combined record, a 5.93 ERA, and a 1.59 WHIP.

I sort of don't care what Duquette has maybe done in the past to assemble starting pitching, his track record here is incredibly atrocious for the most part.  His two best starting pitching acquisitions were both treated as expendable, and were both plucked from foreign leagues (ironic for an organization that now seems militantly opposed to being aggressive in the larger international market).  And all this for a team that was until a few days ago just a game or so out of a WC game spot.

 

Wow. That's pretty graphic. The only factor that is somewhat of an "X" factor is this: would those same 5 pitchers have the same stats with the O's as they have on their other respective teams? Scouting/selecting is one aspect; but so is developing. And it seems to me that the O's not only have problems when it comes to scouting/selecting (and paying), but also have problems once pitchers are here. They don't seem to know how to get the most out of starting pitchers. So certainly when you combine those two elements, it's the perfect chit storm.

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On 8/16/2017 at 4:12 PM, pitbull said:

Meanwhile, we trot out Ubaldo today against a team whose starter who boasts an ERA over 8.00.

# # # # #

(Davies) hasn't been great; his 4.26 ERA is worse than his 3.97 mark from last year, when he went 11-7 in 28 starts. His strikeouts are down and his walks are up. Still, he has taken a step forward this last month and the run support has been there all year long.

 

I am beginning to think that this might have been a bad trade for the Orioles. Hindsight is beautiful. :)

 

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4 hours ago, Ravens2006 said:

Chew on these numbers for a moment...

Consider 5 young / young-ish starting pitchers the Orioles have shipped away in the past few years, for debatable at best return... Miranda, Bridwell, Davies, Arrieta, and Rodriguez.

This season, those 5 are an average age of 26.5, have a combined 50-31 record, 4.05 ERA, and 1.27 WHIP.  

Consider 3 starting pitchers the Orioles thought it wise to add to the rotation... Miley, Jimenez, and Hellickson.

This season, those 3 are an average age of almost 32, have a 15-26 combined record, a 5.93 ERA, and a 1.59 WHIP.

I sort of don't care what Duquette has maybe done in the past to assemble starting pitching, his track record here is incredibly atrocious for the most part.  His two best starting pitching acquisitions were both treated as expendable, and were both plucked from foreign leagues (ironic for an organization that now seems militantly opposed to being aggressive in the larger international market).  And all this for a team that was until a few days ago just a game or so out of a WC game spot.

 

The Orioles have been in contention since his arrival. Duquette failed to get the Orioles in the World Series. But I'll take the current crop over what it was like before he came on board. I really don't understand why the Orioles kept Jimenez (not only on the roster, but also in the starting rotation most of the time).

As far as the trades go...the Orioles are criticized for doing nothing and at the same time are criticized for trading (insert player here). Acquiring players is not an exact science. GMs have to rely on their scouting departments in order to make decisions. When the scouting department is overwhelmed, it is not effective. If the Orioles want to improve the team it starts there. Duquette can only do with what is available to him. When he was with Montreal and Boston he had solid organizations committed from the ground up. Here in Baltimore ownership has been cheap on scouting and layer development. Even with its current payroll at the ML level, the team still continues to cut corners elsewhere.

Edited by ncbirdfan
typo

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3 hours ago, Ravens2006 said:

Chew on these numbers for a moment...

Consider 5 young / young-ish starting pitchers the Orioles have shipped away in the past few years, for debatable at best return... Miranda, Bridwell, Davies, Arrieta, and Rodriguez.

This season, those 5 are an average age of 26.5, have a combined 50-31 record, 4.05 ERA, and 1.27 WHIP.  

Consider 3 starting pitchers the Orioles thought it wise to add to the rotation... Miley, Jimenez, and Hellickson.

This season, those 3 are an average age of almost 32, have a 15-26 combined record, a 5.93 ERA, and a 1.59 WHIP.

I sort of don't care what Duquette has maybe done in the past to assemble starting pitching, his track record here is incredibly atrocious for the most part.  His two best starting pitching acquisitions were both treated as expendable, and were both plucked from foreign leagues (ironic for an organization that now seems militantly opposed to being aggressive in the larger international market).  And all this for a team that was until a few days ago just a game or so out of a WC game spot.

 

Flat out not acceptable. Some changes have to be made in the Front Office 

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46 minutes ago, BayAreaBmore said:

Flat out not acceptable. Some changes have to be made in the Front Office 

You'll have to fire the ownership group. As the majority owner, Pete takes all the heat. But there isn't a single member of that group that has ever shown any interest in having a parade. 

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2 hours ago, ncbirdfan said:

The Orioles have been in contention since his arrival. Duquette failed to get the Orioles in the World Series. But I'll take the current crop over what it was like before he came on board. I really don't understand why the Orioles kept Jimenez (not only on the roster, but also in the starting rotation most of the time).

As far as the trades go...the Orioles are criticized for doing nothing and at the same time are criticized for trading (insert player here). Acquiring players is not an exact science. GMs have to rely on their scouting departments in order to make decisions. When the scouting department is overwhelmed, it is not effective. If the Orioles want to improve the team it starts there. Duquette can only do with what is available to him. When he was with Montreal and Boston he had solid organizations committed from the ground up. Here in Baltimore ownership has been cheap on scouting and layer development. Even with its current payroll at the ML level, the team still continues to cut corners elsewhere.

Hard to argue with this.

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2 hours ago, ncbirdfan said:

The Orioles have been in contention since his arrival. Duquette failed to get the Orioles in the World Series. But I'll take the current crop over what it was like before he came on board. I really don't understand why the Orioles kept Jimenez (not only on the roster, but also in the starting rotation most of the time).

As far as the trades go...the Orioles are criticized for doing nothing and at the same time are criticized for trading (insert player here). Acquiring players is not an exact science. GMs have to rely on their scouting departments in order to make decisions. When the scouting department is overwhelmed, it is not effective. If the Orioles want to improve the team it starts there. Duquette can only do with what is available to him. When he was with Montreal and Boston he had solid organizations committed from the ground up. Here in Baltimore ownership has been cheap on scouting and layer development. Even with its current payroll at the ML level, the team still continues to cut corners elsewhere.

Agree completely. 

But this also points to the familiar notion that ownership cares more about $$$ than wins.

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I've said it many times before and continue to stick by it... the majority of the core of what made the Orioles competitive / contend was assembled by the previous GM.  I think the Cruz acquisition was an incredible stroke of good luck thanks to a depressed market and his prior PED suspension (and considering the Orioles like to use "bad luck" so often to explain their misfortunes, I think it's fair to credit dumb good luck for some things as well), and Trumbo had a similar 1 year extra-good spike (and is now back to more of his career norm).  He acquired two starting pitchers that performed for a while.  That's great, but he didn't build a foundation.  

I hope I'm wrong, but I think he'll be gone in two years, with many of the most critical / key pieces that helped make the team remotely interesting again also either gone or well in to decline... and what's left behind looks pretty barren.  Same old analogy, MacPhail assembled a really nice frame and a nice engine, Duquette took the keys, drove it hard and added some cool accessories... but is on the verge of handing over the keys to a car that needs a lot of work from neglect.

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5 hours ago, weird-O said:

You'll have to fire the ownership group. As the majority owner, Pete takes all the heat. But there isn't a single member of that group that has ever shown any interest in having a parade. 

That's really sad. But true 

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