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Race related covenants on Rodgers Forge deeds

71 posts in this topic

26 minutes ago, bmore_ken said:

I'm still scratching my head on how he got to Section 8 which are rentals, from a discussion about home ownership. Every time I think I've read his dumbest comment, he takes it to a new level. 

Ok.... I guess I assumed too much by bringing up section 8's and that you both might see the connection. Yes rentals.

Well I have at least 3 or 4 section 8's that are 'renting' full blown homes. Which without 'assistance' would not be able to rent said home. Now, since the homes are 'rented' they are occupied....meaning..that they are no longer available for purchase. I am SURE you have already read tons of stuff on how difficult it is to pry a section 8er out of their given domicile.

So bottom line....by renting to section 8's...you reduce the available units for purchase....which in turn drives up the prices on what is available to purchase...at least in the better areas.

Now areas like Woodlawn/Gwynn Oak....not a 'better area'. I have been here for 30 years and watched the ebb and flow of prices on the housing stock. About 20 years ago before the housing market collapse, this area was in a slump....however things really started to improve when well educated people started moving in. Well, those people are now moving out....and section 8's are moving in....and guess what ...market value of homes are going down. Ken with all your real estate knowledge should recognize what I am talking about.

Edited by Guido2

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2 hours ago, bmore_ken said:

It's totally relevant because it destroys that false narrative that you and hst2 put out. It can be that way for everyone. This isn't the 40s or 50s. If you allow a realtor to tell you what you want, that's on you not the realtor. I didn't do anything any other black person in America can't do. If you're not intelligent enough to do it the way I did, perhaps your not ready for home ownership. 

Ken, there is no false narrative. Some people in this country were systematically discriminated against. Some still are. That one person had no problems does not mean that no one else will. The bright and the wealthy will always live well, but government policy is not for those people, it is for everyone else at the other end of the bell curve. You can not make policy on the anecdotal. 

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29 minutes ago, sparky1 said:

Ken, there is no false narrative. Some people in this country were systematically discriminated against. Some still are.

There is no systematic discrimination in the home buying process. Prove it. Not from 1950. Show proof of systematic discrimination in 2017. I'm assuming you know the definition of systematic, which on second thought is probably a bad assumption. 

Edited by bmore_ken

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32 minutes ago, bmore_ken said:

There is no systematic discrimination in the home buying process. Prove it. Not from 1950. Show proof of systematic discrimination in 2017. I'm assuming you know the definition of systematic, which on second thought is probably a bad assumption. 

Wow we agree! Some have to face the fact that if you got the bucks or good credit NO SELLER is going to turn you down. You could be Satan himself buying the home....got the bucks....sign here.

The unfortunate thing is that some seem to think that ALL are entitled to what others have earned by default.

Few understand that .... in this day and age.....there are still winners and losers...both of which create their own destiny.

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47 minutes ago, bmore_ken said:

There is no systematic discrimination in the home buying process. Prove it. Not from 1950. Show proof of systematic discrimination in 2017. I'm assuming you know the definition of systematic, which on second thought is probably a bad assumption. 

I have tried not to allude to levels of intelligence in this little back and forth and will continue to hold you in nothing but high regard. 2017 is not over yet but here are a few cases from this decade. 

"On July 12, 2012, the City of Baltimore resolved its landmark fair lending lawsuit against Wells Fargo, filed on the City's behalf by Relman, Dane & Colfax over four years ago. Resolution of the suit was announced concurrently with an announcement by the United States Department of Justice that it has reached a national fair lending settlement with Wells Fargo worth at least $175 million." http://www.relmanlaw.com/civil-rights-litigation/cases/Baltimore-v-wells-settlement.php

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-wells-lending-settlement/wells-fargo-to-pay-175-million-in-race-discrimination-probe-idUSBRE86B0V220120712

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/opinion/wells-fargo-settlement-an-important-victory-for-minority-homeowners-communities/14150/

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8 minutes ago, sparky1 said:

I have tried not to allude to levels of intelligence in this little back and forth and will continue to hold you in nothing but high regard. 2017 is not over yet but here are a few cases from this decade. 

"On July 12, 2012, the City of Baltimore resolved its landmark fair lending lawsuit against Wells Fargo, filed on the City's behalf by Relman, Dane & Colfax over four years ago. Resolution of the suit was announced concurrently with an announcement by the United States Department of Justice that it has reached a national fair lending settlement with Wells Fargo worth at least $175 million." http://www.relmanlaw.com/civil-rights-litigation/cases/Baltimore-v-wells-settlement.php

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-wells-lending-settlement/wells-fargo-to-pay-175-million-in-race-discrimination-probe-idUSBRE86B0V220120712

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/opinion/wells-fargo-settlement-an-important-victory-for-minority-homeowners-communities/14150/

That's one bank and the system worked as they ended up paying for violating the law. Is that all you got? Apparently you didn't understand what systematic meant. 

Edited by bmore_ken

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How many more systems and banks do you want to hear about? That was a 3 minute google search. I am pretty sure the fact that it applied across several states and cities is enough to make it a systematic problem, and not the actions of a single rogue mortgage broker and realtor. Is it that you do not want it to be true, or you do not believe it could be?

 

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2 minutes ago, sparky1 said:

How many more systems and banks do you want to hear about? That was a 3 minute google search. I am pretty sure the fact that it applied across several states and cities is enough to make it a systematic problem, and not the actions of a single rogue mortgage broker and realtor. Is it that you do not want it to be true, or you do not believe it could be?

 

Post more if you can find any. We'll wait. One bank is not the entire mortgage industry. Again you don't know the definition of systematic.

Edited by bmore_ken

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16 minutes ago, bmore_ken said:

Post more if you can find any. We'll wait. One bank is not the entire mortgage industry. Again you don't know the definition of systematic.

What he appears to be alluding to is the fact that during the housing boom that led to the real estate bubble bursting lots of people were lured into subprime mortgages that bit them in the butt when housing values fell, and several banks were accused of doing that luring more to minority groups (particularly blacks and latinos) than they did to white mortgage applicants with similar credit profiles. The practice was referred to as "reverse redlining". In part that occured because in the frenzy to become homeowners, more people (of all races) who had less knowledge of how the whole home buying and mortgage financing process works were able to be duped into paying higher fees and ageeing to higher interest rates than they might have otherwise been qualified for, had they had a bit more knowledge about what to ask. It was not racism on the part of the banks and mortgage companies who did that - it was greed. Taking advantage of less well educated or less well informed mortgage applicants was way too easy to do at the time, since buying real estate was being described as the sure fire way to grow your wealth, since housing values "never" drop. Way too many people bought into that myth at the time. 

Edited by Papi

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2 minutes ago, Papi said:

What he appears to be alluding to is the fact that during the housing boom that led to the real estate bubble bursting lots of people were lured into subprime mortgages that bit them in the butt when housing values fell, and several banks were accused of doing that luring more to minority groups (particularly blacks and latinos) than they did to white mortgage applicants with similar credit profiles. The practice was referred to as "reverse redlining". In part that occured because in the frenzy to become homeowners, more people (of all races) who had less knowledge of how the whole home buying and mortgage financing process works were able to be duped into paying higher fees and ageeing to higher interest rates than they might have otherwise been qualified for, had they had a bit more knowledge about what to ask. It was not racism on the part of the banks and mortgage companies who did that - it was greed. Taking advantage of less well educated or less well informed mortgage applicants was way too easy to do at the time, since buying real estate was being described as the sure fire way to grow your wealth, since housing values "never" drop. Way too many people bought into that myth at the time. 

There's the problem. As I mentioned before. I applied to several banks to make sure I was getting the best deal. Who's fault is it if you don't do your homework and get educated on the process , who's fault is that?

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3 minutes ago, bmore_ken said:

There's the problem. As I mentioned before. I applied to several banks to make sure I was getting the best deal. Who's fault is it if you don't do your homework and get educated on the process , who's fault is that?

Many disagree with your position....Their 'feeling' is.....if you are an idiot....well it is not your fault....here let me level the playing field to the detriment of those that actually have their act together.

For example; why are insurance rates so high.....it is not because you are I are not careful, keep our cars maintained drive at normal speeds etc.  No. It is because of the idiots that do none of those things....yet...because the law says so....have to be carried by insurance companies or at the very least ....like in the case of MD....the insurance of last resort pool. Theoretically separate....but it is not.

Much like health insurance....even those that are on 'group policies' have seen spikes since Obamacare....why? That was supposed to be separate. Ahhhhh yeah. :rolleyes:

 

 

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16 minutes ago, bmore_ken said:

There's the problem. As I mentioned before. I applied to several banks to make sure I was getting the best deal. Who's fault is it if you don't do your homework and get educated on the process , who's fault is that?

Exactly. Predatory business are likely to pick on customers who are vulnerable in some way. Sort of like price gouging after a hurricane. Greed is colorblind. 

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I think we have reached a logical end to our discussion when we can not even agree on the facts of the argument. I am unswayed by your argument and you of mine. 

I would at last and finally posit this as an example of systematic discrimination in housing and lending. 

M&T Bank, Eagle Bank, Evans Bancorp, Hudson City Savings Bank paid settlements for wrong doing in lending. That is more than one bank.

Cases were investigated, opened and settled in Baltimore City, Buffalo, NY, Milwaukee, WS, Providence, RI, Rochester, NY, St. Louis, MO. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/31/nyregion/hudson-city-bank-settlement.html?mcubz=1

Perhaps we can agree that it is a bad practice that should not happen, but sadly still does. The best way to protect yourself from bad actors is to be intellectually well armed. 

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5 minutes ago, sparky1 said:

*

Perhaps we can agree that it is a bad practice that should not happen, but sadly still does. The best way to protect yourself from bad actors is to be intellectually well armed.

Now that we can agree on.

Edited by bmore_ken

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7 minutes ago, bmore_ken said:

Now that we can agree on.

I agree also.

However, as we have seen with the Trump election and his core gerbils and just interivews with the man on the street...just Joe Blow....

At least I have come to realize that in general the US public .....well....just isn't bright enough to keep up....even remotely with the games being played on them from a much higher level.

ken you likely will disagree.....but I think I am pretty smart...and I read some of these contracts and stuff for work on the house....and it is a 'wahhhhhhht' moment.

I make it easy on myself now......I just throw it back on the table the next day and say.....give it to me in English or the doors over there.

Funny 20 pages come down to 2. Duh.

Edited by Guido2

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It smells like an Offended-American looked around for something to be outraged about and get some publicity.

Anything to get your name and face in the papers for taking up a "cause." Cause-mongers of Rodgers Forge unite, strike down this evil relic of the past before it destroys your children's future.

Is there no limit to the nonsense of the Left?

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1 hour ago, retired said:

It smells like an Offended-American looked around for something to be outraged about and get some publicity.

Anything to get your name and face in the papers for taking up a "cause." Cause-mongers of Rodgers Forge unite, strike down this evil relic of the past before it destroys your children's future.

Is there no limit to the nonsense of the Left?

Seems clear enough.  The language is offensive, illegal, and unenforceable.  Frankly it could be argued that it is so illegal that is could nullify the entire document.  It needs to be changed and I can tell think of one argument against changing it.

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9 minutes ago, Bawlmerian said:

Seems clear enough.  The language is offensive, illegal, and unenforceable.  Frankly it could be argued that it is so illegal that is could nullify the entire document.  It needs to be changed and I can tell think of one argument against changing it.

Only two arguments one you can solve with a check.

  1. I don't think anyone that is now living in the area really gives a poop about it. Black white pink or purple....they had the money and they bought the house. Seems everyone is fine. Do you Bawl....have any idea the turmoil going back looking at deeds etc. will cause for thos people that are living there.
  2. Second....and this is where you whip out your checkbook. Do you have any idea how much it will cost just to 're-set' the codes and the deed's an such. A lot.

Most laws are still on the books simply because re-wrtiing them and the cost of procedure and the cost of printing new ones is nuts.

So. whip out your checkbook....help all those people that DEMAND that their contracts or what evers cost. That means from the ground up.

 

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48 minutes ago, Guido2 said:

Only two arguments one you can solve with a check.

  1. I don't think anyone that is now living in the area really gives a poop about it. Black white pink or purple....they had the money and they bought the house. Seems everyone is fine. Do you Bawl....have any idea the turmoil going back looking at deeds etc. will cause for thos people that are living there.
  2. Second....and this is where you whip out your checkbook. Do you have any idea how much it will cost just to 're-set' the codes and the deed's an such. A lot.

Most laws are still on the books simply because re-wrtiing them and the cost of procedure and the cost of printing new ones is nuts.

So. whip out your checkbook....help all those people that DEMAND that their contracts or what evers cost. That means from the ground up.

 

CHANGING THE COVENANTS

While the covenants are often considered to be written in stone, they can be changed. Near the end of each covenant document, as evidenced in the above examples, there is language that explains how this can be done (except for those that expired in 1960). Generally, it requires a certain percentage of homeowners in the given area to sign off on the change.

That’s what one Rodgers Forge resident did when he wanted to put skylights in his house and the board said no. (He now has the skylights and the board did not take legal action.) His home is in the non-expired section. Click here to read the abrogation that allowed the skylights.

http://towsonflyer.com/2011/06/27/information-about-rodgers-forge-covenants/

 

Really detail article 

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11 hours ago, Bawlmerian said:

CHANGING THE COVENANTS

While the covenants are often considered to be written in stone, they can be changed. Near the end of each covenant document, as evidenced in the above examples, there is language that explains how this can be done (except for those that expired in 1960). Generally, it requires a certain percentage of homeowners in the given area to sign off on the change.

That’s what one Rodgers Forge resident did when he wanted to put skylights in his house and the board said no. (He now has the skylights and the board did not take legal action.) His home is in the non-expired section. Click here to read the abrogation that allowed the skylights.

http://towsonflyer.com/2011/06/27/information-about-rodgers-forge-covenants/

 

Really detail article 

I have heard good and bad about covenants.

I don't live in an area with a covenant. Sometimes I wish we did like when a neighbor lets his yard turn into jungle habitat or a junk yard and don't when I hear stories about how some covenants turn the board into a bunch of petty dictators. Such as the case of the skylight.

I have also heard stories where the covenant demands that all doors being painted only certain colors and those colors  must be evenly spread out....like red white green blue.....you can't have blue blue red white green....and only certain shades that are approved.

Like anything now a days....good can be twisted into evil.....funny though I never hear of evil being twisted into good.

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I don't recall if it was a deed or covenant, but my parents bought a derelict home and property on Allender Road (Rt 40, north of Baltimore, near Joppatown) in 1982, and I saw documentation that specifically stated no livestock and no blacks. I can't remember the exact language, but I remember being somehow surprised, actually seeing that sentiment on an official document. It was in a folder with all the paperwork, and it's exactly the sort of thing I'd love to have, but it's been lost.

The house was likely built in the early 40's.  The neighborhood is currently a respective mix of ethnicity and races. 

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