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Ode2Joy

Naval Academy to discuss two buildings named for Confederates

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http://wtop.com/anne-arundel-county/2017/09/naval-academy-to-discuss-2-buildings-named-for-confederates

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WASHINGTON (AP) — A panel on memorials at the U.S. Naval Academy will discuss whether two buildings on the campus grounds should remain named after two American naval officers who fought for the Confederacy.

Vice Adm. Ted Carter, the school’s superintendent, briefed the academy’s Board of Visitors on Monday about the two building names. He says “right now, there is not a move to make an immediate change, but there is ongoing dialogue.”

 

 

Oooh!  That’s going to make the ‘soil and blood’ crowd stock up on tiki torches if they do change the names (and I hope they do). 

They left this country's service to fight against it.  They wouldn't want to be honored by their declared enemy they were trying to defeat anyway. 

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7 minutes ago, Ode2Joy said:

 

http://wtop.com/anne-arundel-county/2017/09/naval-academy-to-discuss-2-buildings-named-for-confederates

 

Oooh!  That’s going to make the ‘soil and blood’ crowd stock up on tiki torches if they do change the names (and I hope they do). 

They left this country's service to fight against it.  They wouldn't want to be honored by their declared enemy they were trying to defeat anyway. 

I'm just curious, how do you know they wouldn't want to be honored this way? Ouija board, spirits, past life?

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15 minutes ago, Ode2Joy said:

 

http://wtop.com/anne-arundel-county/2017/09/naval-academy-to-discuss-2-buildings-named-for-confederates

 

Oooh!  That’s going to make the ‘soil and blood’ crowd stock up on tiki torches if they do change the names (and I hope they do). 

They left this country's service to fight against it.  They wouldn't want to be honored by their declared enemy they were trying to defeat anyway. 

Well now that its brought out who they are its easier.

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40 minutes ago, Ode2Joy said:

 

http://wtop.com/anne-arundel-county/2017/09/naval-academy-to-discuss-2-buildings-named-for-confederates

 

Oooh!  That’s going to make the ‘soil and blood’ crowd stock up on tiki torches if they do change the names (and I hope they do). 

They left this country's service to fight against it.  They wouldn't want to be honored by their declared enemy they were trying to defeat anyway. 

If there was an abused woman who tried to leave her husband and her husband attacked her for leaving, would you blame her for fighting back?

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It is pretty obvious this sort of stuff is not going away anytime soon.

I have a suggestion. Moving forward, as names are removed....they are no longer rededicated to anyone else. They will simply be named Building One or Hall Two. No body in the future will have an ax to grind.

Unless of course some get there shorts in a twist that using decimals is bigoted and racist against Binary, Octal and Hex. :lol:

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I like the idea of honoring those who fought for our country.  I just don't think it's a good idea to be honoring those who fought against it.  They lost that right to be honored by those they swore to kill and destroy.  . 

A lot of what was done in the name of reconciliation after the war should be recognized for what it was.  It's 2017.  We now need to recognize that reconciliation should have been accomplished by now, or it never will be.  . 

I doubt we'll see any Confederate Associations and Museums honoring Union leaders and soldiers anytime soon.   

 

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47 minutes ago, Smokey 1 said:

If there was an abused woman who tried to leave her husband and her husband attacked her for leaving, would you blame her for fighting back?

Or an escaped slave?

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1 minute ago, Ode2Joy said:

I like the idea of honoring those who fought for our country.  I just don't think it's a good idea to be honoring those who fought against it.  They lost that right to be honored by those they swore to kill and destroy.  . 

A lot of what was done in the name of reconciliation after the war should be recognized for what it was.  It's 2017.  We now need to recognize that reconciliation should have been accomplished by now, or it never will be.  . 

I doubt we'll see any Confederate Associations and Museums honoring Union leaders and soldiers anytime soon.   

 

Good point all.

Any plans for OBL statue in lower Manhattan? 

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3 minutes ago, Bawlmerian said:

Or an escaped slave?

Probably depends on whether we view a slave as a human being or as our personal property.

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31 minutes ago, Bawlmerian said:

Or an escaped slave?

It's been done. Or does it need to be EXCLUSIVELY 'escaped' slaves....not slaves in general. I am sure the escaped ones were covered in the links below......and OHHHHHh yeah.....that ittty bitty one in DC.....and the one in BC.

https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2016/01/is-the-whitney-plantation-really-americas-first-slavery-museum/431448/

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&q=slavery+museum&oq=Slaves+muse&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i22i10i30k1j0i22i30k1j0i22i10i30k1j0i22i30k1.19618.26885.0.30262.11.11.0.0.0.0.260.1553.0j10j1.11.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.11.1540...0j0i131k1.T_O4kq6EXDI

 

Edited by Guido2

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31 minutes ago, Ode2Joy said:

Probably depends on whether we view a slave as a human being or as our personal property.

Ode....not picking....but....isn't that really something from the past? I doubt that anyone thinks of slavery in those terms now-a-days either way. Well at least 99.9%.....

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The discussion should take no more than 2 minutes.

Granted, like Benedict Arnold, these men no doubt served with distinction. But like in the case of BA, all those good deeds were washed away when they chose to become traitors.

Q: Did these men take up arms against the USA?

A: Yes.

Conclusion: Adios. We have a couple buildings to rename...

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1 hour ago, Ode2Joy said:

I like the idea of honoring those who fought for our country.  I just don't think it's a good idea to be honoring those who fought against it.  They lost that right to be honored by those they swore to kill and destroy.  . 

A lot of what was done in the name of reconciliation after the war should be recognized for what it was.  It's 2017.  We now need to recognize that reconciliation should have been accomplished by now, or it never will be.  . 

I doubt we'll see any Confederate Associations and Museums honoring Union leaders and soldiers anytime soon.   

 

They wouldn't have fought against this country if this country left them alone to their independence which was denied to them at the point of a gun.  No one is asking this country or anyone to honor those in the Confederacy but you can't stop people who choose to honor them.

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1 hour ago, Bawlmerian said:

Or an escaped slave?

Good point, would you chastise a slave who fought for his freedom?

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3 hours ago, Smokey 1 said:

Good point, would you chastise a slave who fought for his freedom?

Would you demand they be kept?

Unlike the states the slave never entered into the agreement voluntarily 

Not every person in the south wanted to leave the union.  

Edited by Bawlmerian

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Just now, Bawlmerian said:

Would you demand they be kept?

Of course not.  How many times do I have tell you people I oppose any and every form of slavery?

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Had the South been successful in breaking away, do you think the Naval Academy would have two buildings named after Confederates?

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8 minutes ago, Baltimatt said:

Had the South been successful in breaking away, do you think the Naval Academy would have two buildings named after Confederates?

Oh... this is fun....let's play maybe.

Well say the south had been successful and actually won the war. How many buildings at the Naval Academy would be named after Union leaders.

While we are at it....anybody have a notion as to how many Angels can dance on the head of a pin?:D

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This is an interesting case. Both had ridiculously long Navy careers (around 35 years and 45 years) before they soiled themselves by defecting to the Confederacy. One was the first superintendent of the Academy, and the other made enormous contributions in navigation and other naval sciences.

It's a military installation and a military honor. But a building was named after Maury in 1929, which is right in that key period of segregation and white supremacy. I think five black cadets tried to make it through the Academy between Reconstruction and World War II, but they were washed out because of racism. The first guy to do it was in 1949.

This isn't unlike having a military building or facility named after Robert E. Lee; he did have a significant career in the Mexican-American War and became superintendent of West Point. I think giving naming as a military honor to those with significant career in the US forces even though they became traitors has some merit in reconciliation, although it's difficult to overlook what was going on with it and maybe when the honors were given. It's a different situation than putting up shrines to them in the most central public places, often where they are the only ones receiving the honor.

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54 minutes ago, bmorepunk said:

This is an interesting case. Both had ridiculously long Navy careers (around 35 years and 45 years) before they soiled themselves by defecting to the Confederacy. One was the first superintendent of the Academy, and the other made enormous contributions in navigation and other naval sciences.

It's a military installation and a military honor. But a building was named after Maury in 1929, which is right in that key period of segregation and white supremacy. I think five black cadets tried to make it through the Academy between Reconstruction and World War II, but they were washed out because of racism. The first guy to do it was in 1949.

This isn't unlike having a military building or facility named after Robert E. Lee; he did have a significant career in the Mexican-American War and became superintendent of West Point. I think giving naming as a military honor to those with significant career in the US forces even though they became traitors has some merit in reconciliation, although it's difficult to overlook what was going on with it and maybe when the honors were given. It's a different situation than putting up shrines to them in the most central public places, often where they are the only ones receiving the honor.

They weren't traitors, they would have been traitors if they fought against their home states.  If they were traitors then why weren't Confederate officers and men tried for treason after the war?

Quote

 

The question of treason is distinct from that of slavery; and is the same that it would have been, if free States, instead of slave States, had seceded.

On the part of the North, the war was carried on, not to liberate the slaves, but by a government that had always perverted and violated the Constitution, to keep the slaves in bondage; and was still willing to do so, if the slaveholders could be thereby induced to stay in the Union.

The principle, on which the war was waged by the North, was simply this: That men may rightfully be compelled to submit to, and support, a government that they do not want; and that resistance, on their part, makes them traitors and criminals.

No principle, that is possible to be named, can be more self-evidently false than this; or more self-evidently fatal to all political freedom. Yet it triumphed in the field, and is now assumed to be established. If it be really established, the number of slaves, instead of having been diminished by the war, has been greatly increased; for a man, thus subjected to a government that he does not want, is a slave. And there is no difference, in principle—but only in degree—between political and chattel slavery. The former, no less than the latter, denies a man’s ownership of himself and the products of his labor; and [iv] asserts that other men may own him, and dispose of him and his property, for their uses, and at their pleasure.

 

http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/spooner-no-treason-no-i-1867

I always wondered what would have happened if the states had gone on a general strike instead of seceding.  Lincoln would have had to show his true colors and it wouldn't have been pretty.  Talk about slave masters........

Edited by Smokey 1

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Kristallnacht across America continues . Monuments, school names , street names, reenactments, reenactors, songs , paintings flags, cemeteries , graves. Guess who's next folks ........us.

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10 minutes ago, Duke of Earl said:

Kristallnacht across America continues . Monuments, school names , street names, reenactments, reenactors, songs , paintings flags, cemeteries , graves. Guess who's next folks ........us.

Us? Which us....what do you mean?

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17 minutes ago, Guido2 said:

Us? Which us....what do you mean?

Descendants of Confederate soldiers. 

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10 minutes ago, Duke of Earl said:

Descendants of Confederate soldiers. 

Thanks! I can relax now.....my ancestors didn't show up here till 1910 or so :D But I am white.....hmmmm.....that could be an issue. :D

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