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volperdinger

Latest Ballistic Missile Test by North Korea

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37 minutes ago, blowboatbethesda said:

Not from the outside world, they haven't.

Which was exactly my point. You cannot be so sure they turn on their dear leader. 

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28 minutes ago, jdsample said:

That is true.  But the Japanese people in 1945 had not ever seen an open society, either and had a history of suicide cults.  They did not as a people engage in terrorism after their defeat.  They were able to accept it.  I suspect that Korean culture is closer to Japanese culture than to radical Islam.  

Also true but if I remember history correctly the emperor had a hand in that. I doubt Kim follows the same path in defeat. 

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On 9/15/2017 at 7:24 AM, dogstarman said:

Really? You are saying with a straight face that when Trump said an "Armada is on the way" it wasn't an empty threat? I mean it wasn't an Armada, it was an aircraft carrier and, oh yeah, much to the surprise of the ship's captain it wasn't even heading to NK (https://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-davidson/donald-trump-north-korea-and-the-case-of-the-phantom-armada). If the context were different one could make a case that that was figurative language... but not here. He just riffed like a real estate guy in a boiler room operation. Except it wasn't a boiler room and it wasn't a student of Trump U he was trying to rip off, it was Xi Jinping. So embarrassing to have the leader of the Free world so utterly outclassed.

As for Afghanistan and Iraq, sorry to break it to you but we are still facing significant problems there THIRTEEN YEARS after Dubya gave a speech in front of a banner declaring "Mission Accomplished". That's a bit tougher than "wet toilet paper" , I think.

Regardless of the correct location -- an Aircraft Carrier is not simply an Aircraft Carrier. It would be a carrier strike group.

 

The strike group consists of the Carrier,

an Air wing of 60-70 aircraft,

commonly 2 Ticonderoga Class Aegis Guided Missile Cruisers

a Destroyer Squadron of commonly 6-9 Destroyers,

normally 2 submarines

sometimes frigates

at least 1 supply ships

and sometimes a naval amphibious group

.SO at a minimum we are looking at 12 ships and associated aircraft -- kind of meets the definition of armada

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_strike_group#List_of_active_CSGs

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On 9/15/2017 at 2:52 PM, Guido2 said:

To be blunt....I give a rats butt about the NK who died at the hands of the NK. That is their issue.

I do care that the retarded leader in fit of some sort lobs a missile at Japan....and this time it isn't a fly over. Or just as bad...they have a misfire and it lands in Tokyo. If you don't see that the NK is flipping the bird at the world by these latest launches....well....smh.

The world and the US have been giving these jerks a free lunch for to long....NK now thinks they can own the restaurant.

So bottom line.....like it or not.... it is getting to the point of the old Fram Oil filters ads. ' You can pay me now...or you can pay me later'.

And like the ad.....an oil filter is cheap (a tactical strike) vs your engine blowing up (trying to take out a first class nut case with ICBMs and nukes). They maybe have 4 at this point nukes.....can they reach the US? Sorry I don't want to wait to find out.

Ohhh and losing 10000 Americans? Not if you do it right the first time.

 

 

You have actually no clue about NK adits, hidey holes, bunkers and the 35,000-50,000 artillery pieces they have aimed at Seoul.  - This doesn't even include the HUNDREDS of Ballistic Missiles they have,, nor the THOUSANDS of rockets.

Spread across literally a Thousand square miles near the DMZ alone.

FYI -- nothing we have comes close to the Jericho -- MLRS can lay down anti-personnel and anti-material submunitions over a large area but we would need thousands of them -- and they don't work on materiel hidden in bunkers and adits

 

 

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1 minute ago, karlydee2 said:

Regardless of the correct location -- an Aircraft Carrier is not simply an Aircraft Carrier. It would be a carrier strike group.

 

The strike group consists of the Carrier,

an Air wing of 60-70 aircraft,

commonly 2 Ticonderoga Class Aegis Guided Missile Cruisers

a Destroyer Squadron of commonly 6-9 Destroyers,

normally 2 submarines

sometimes frigates

at least 1 supply ships

and sometimes a naval amphibious group

.SO at a minimum we are looking at 12 ships and associated aircraft -- kind of meets the definition of armada

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_strike_group#List_of_active_CSGs

Call it what you will, that "fleet" can, and will, if ordered, reduce North Korea's leadership to ashes in about the time it took the Enola Gay to turn Hiroshima into dust. Collateral damage is inevitable should that decision be made, however our allies must be defended. 

No nukes involved. 

 

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10 minutes ago, blowboatbethesda said:

Call it what you will, that "fleet" can, and will, if ordered, reduce North Korea's leadership to ashes in about the time it took the Enola Gay to turn Hiroshima into dust. Collateral damage is inevitable should that decision be made, however our allies must be defended. 

No nukes involved. 

 

You vastly overestimate the capability of non-nuclear ordinance against NK bunkered positions.

Hell -- Tora Bora didn't knock out the Taliban -- a bunch of ragamuffin nomads

In the case of NK, you have an entire country the size of new Jersey riddled with bunkers and tunnels in mountains, in every cave, and they have been building that infrastructure since the 1950's. it's crazy -- go to 38 North and do some research.

Minimum casualties in a non-nuclear confrontation with NK -- Kim will use Chemical weapons

NK has the ability to launch 150,000 artillery shells and rockets combined at Seoul before anyone can even react --- and many experts believe they could put 500,000 shells into Seoul in the first hour of a conflict

FYI -- they never got rid of any artillery pieces - ever

Civilians - minimum 250,000 dead in the Seoul Metro - 1 million wounded (this includes ex-pats from all over the globe)

US Military personnel - thousands dead - many more wounded

Edited by karlydee2

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13 minutes ago, blowboatbethesda said:

Call it what you will, that "fleet" can, and will, if ordered, reduce North Korea's leadership to ashes in about the time it took the Enola Gay to turn Hiroshima into dust. Collateral damage is inevitable should that decision be made, however our allies must be defended. 

No nukes involved. 

 

Not enough ordinance on all those ships combined to reduce NK to ash

sorry but you are badly mistaken -- our total inventory of about 3000 tomahawks is split among about 12 CSG

 

so that's 250 per strike group -- 66 did D-I_*_K to an airfield in Syria -- one little airfield

 

 

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12 minutes ago, karlydee2 said:

You vastly overestimate the capability of non-nuclear ordinance against NK bunkered positions.

Hell -- Tora Bora didn't knock out the Taliban -- a bunch of ragamuffin nomads

In the case of NK, you have an entire country the size of new Jersey riddled with bunkers and tunnels in mountains, in every cave, and they have been building that infrastructure since the 1950's. it's crazy -- go to 38 North and do some research.

Minimum casualties in a non-nuclear confrontation with NK -- Kim will use Chemical weapons

NK has the ability to launch 150,000 artillery shells and rockets combined at Seoul before anyone can even react --- and many experts believe they could put 500,000 shells into Seoul in the first hour of a conflict

FYI -- they never got rid of any artillery pieces - ever

Civilians - minimum 250,000 dead in the Seoul Metro - 1 million wounded (this includes ex-pats from all over the globe)

US Military personnel - thousands dead - many more wounded

Who said that NK would have anything close to said hour? 

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4 minutes ago, blowboatbethesda said:

Who said that NK would have anything close to said hour? 

You are foolish if you think a response to "obliterate NK could come more quickly than 1hour from the first salvo launch of NK shells.

Lets do some math --The carrier group would be in the middle of the Sea of Japan -- closer would expose them to Chinese Anti Ship missiles which are no joke

 

That puts it at about 400 miles away from the DMZ and 20 miles of NK near Seoul -- Tomahawks fly at 550 mph -- thats a 45 minute flight, same for jets.

Bombers from Diego Garcia, or Guam or Japan -- even longer.

 

ANd no -- our 38,000 troops don't have the ability to stop the artillery barrage -- that's why most of our troops are nowhere NEAR SEOUL

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22 minutes ago, blowboatbethesda said:

Who said that NK would have anything close to said hour? 

Lets say we used 500 tomahawk cruise missiles (1/6th of our entire inventory and more than any CSG would have) with submunitions that can overestimatedly cover 1/4 of a square mile (that's 1500 feet by 1500 feet) -- I'm throwing you a bone)

That means they can cover 125 square miles.

 

HINT: I'm not even including the statistical distribution that a significant % of those Tomahawks DON'T Neutralize the artillery because they are bunkered.

The arc of artillery - rocket propelled artillery, and short range rockets that can target Seoul is over 500 square miles ( about 40 miles long by 12 miles deep) -- and that doesn't account for long range rockets or Ballistic Missiles launched from Pyonyang

Educate yourself and come back to have a real discussion.

Edited by karlydee2

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1 hour ago, karlydee2 said:

Lets say we used 500 tomahawk cruise missiles (1/6th of our entire inventory and more than any CSG would have) with submunitions that can overestimatedly cover 1/4 of a square mile (that's 1500 feet by 1500 feet) -- I'm throwing you a bone)

That means they can cover 125 square miles.

 

HINT: I'm not even including the statistical distribution that a significant % of those Tomahawks DON'T Neutralize the artillery because they are bunkered.

The arc of artillery - rocket propelled artillery, and short range rockets that can target Seoul is over 500 square miles ( about 40 miles long by 12 miles deep) -- and that doesn't account for long range rockets or Ballistic Missiles launched from Pyonyang

Educate yourself and come back to have a real discussion.

Yeah right.  You're forgetting both the land-based and air forces that, by the way, aren't just sitting on the ground,  the Navy A/C aren't on the decks of their carriers and don't' forget about those sneaky little underwater things, (I think they call them submarines, kitty, and they aren't all nukes,)  They're up there as we speak, the B-52's are still up there, and our satellites pretty much know where kimmy-poo is eating lunch as we speak. 

If any one of our country's allies, Japan, South Korea (including Seoul) get hit with anything, i'll give the DPRK government about 20 minutes, nothing more.

Don't quit your day job. 

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34 minutes ago, blowboatbethesda said:

Yeah right.  You're forgetting both the land-based and air forces that, by the way, aren't just sitting on the ground,  the Navy A/C aren't on the decks of their carriers and don't' forget about those sneaky little underwater things, (I think they call them submarines, kitty, and they aren't all nukes,)  They're up there as we speak, the B-52's are still up there, and our satellites pretty much know where kimmy-poo is eating lunch as we speak. 

If any one of our country's allies, Japan, South Korea (including Seoul) get hit with anything, i'll give the DPRK government about 20 minutes, nothing more.

Don't quit your day job. 

1. B-52's are not just Flying around up there -- and the carpet bombing of Tora Bora didn't get Bin Laden, and did jack nothing to the Taliban

2. I included the subs in the over inflated tomahawk numbers (remember there are usually 1 or 2 in a CSG.

3. What Land based forces in South Korea that can be levied against NK artillery?  A few hundred at best M109 or Paladins and  2 or 3 MLRS Battalions? That gives us a few hundred launchers vs 25,000-50,000 artillery pieces.

A non-nuclear conflict with North Korea will be a blood bath for Seoul, and USFK -- regardless of what we end up doing to DPRK.

 

Edited by karlydee2

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44 minutes ago, karlydee2 said:

1. B-52's are not just Flying around up there -- and the carpet bombing of Tora Bora didn't get Bin Laden, and did jack nothing to the Taliban

2. I included the subs in the over inflated tomahawk numbers (remember there are usually 1 or 2 in a CSG.

3. What Land based forces in South Korea that can be levied against NK artillery?  A few hundred at best M109 or Paladins and  2 or 3 MLRS Battalions? That gives us a few hundred launchers vs 25,000-50,000 artillery pieces.

A non-nuclear conflict with North Korea will be a blood bath for Seoul, and USFK -- regardless of what we end up doing to DPRK.

 

Your knowledge of "modern" strategic, tactical and regional military tactics are, i must admit so superior that Napoleon, Grant, Lee and Sherman Would be proud, 200 years ago.

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, karlydee2 said:

Regardless of the correct location -- an Aircraft Carrier is not simply an Aircraft Carrier. It would be a carrier strike group.

[... lots of stuff ...]

SO at a minimum we are looking at 12 ships and associated aircraft -- kind of meets the definition of armada

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_strike_group#List_of_active_CSGs

I'm impressed with your Wikipedia skills, as I have no idea what comes with an aircraft carrier "on the side" when one gets delivered for action.

The fact remains, however, that the carrier was off doing some scheduled operations in another part of the ocean and was NOT, in fact, heading to North Korea. There were no plans to bring this "armada" to North Korea. Moreover, it did not go to North Korea.

What was Mr Trump talking about, then?

Unfortunately, that's not in Wikipedia. I suspect the root answer lies in DSM-5, or it could be that he was just riffing like a septuagenarian Fox news viewer who needs a diaper change.

 

 

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11 hours ago, karlydee2 said:

 

You have actually no clue about NK adits, hidey holes, bunkers and the 35,000-50,000 artillery pieces they have aimed at Seoul.  - This doesn't even include the HUNDREDS of Ballistic Missiles they have,, nor the THOUSANDS of rockets.

Spread across literally a Thousand square miles near the DMZ alone.

FYI -- nothing we have comes close to the Jericho -- MLRS can lay down anti-personnel and anti-material submunitions over a large area but we would need thousands of them -- and they don't work on materiel hidden in bunkers and adits

 

 

And you do? Great ship them over to the Pentagon I am sure they are interested.

I am also well aware .....that at least to public knowledge ....there is no Jericho...nor Iron Man ....or Tony Stark. I was simply making the point that if you are in.....(US retaliation) ....then you damn well better be all in. Otherwise we will have another Vietnam, Afgan etc. Quiz at the end about Afghanistan at the end.

If you are not all in....then sit back and kick the can and hope.

But I do hear what you are saying and I will bet you are drawing from our (yours too????...up front and personal ??????) experience with Vietnam and the Japs? 

Quiz about Afghanistan. Do you or anyone else here know why we are REALLY there? Hint social justice and freedom is NOT the reason.

 

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1 hour ago, Guido2 said:

 

But I do hear what you are saying and I will bet you are drawing from our (yours too????...up front and personal ??????) experience with Vietnam and the Japs? 

Quiz about Afghanistan. Do you or anyone else here know why we are REALLY there? Hint social justice and freedom is NOT the reason.

 

1. Most of the open source info regarding DPRK can be found at 38 North -- They are run out of Johns Hopkins -- they get info [somehow].

2.  multiple: Afghanistan sits smack dab between

IRAN, and the the Former Soviet Islamic States (Kyrgystan, Uzbekistan,Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, and Kazakhstan) - and Pakistan

Pakistan, and the the Former Soviet Islamic States (Kyrgystan, Uzbekistan,Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, and Kazakhstan) -and Iran

so -- we are there to stabilize and keep our interests in the former STANS  -- and to prevent a unified Islamic Superstate, or a war between Pakistan and Iran (Pakistan is Nuclear).

Second -- not oil, GAS baby GAS

Now the big fish -- its called the Turkmenistan–Afghanistan–Pakistan–India Pipeline.  A massive Natural Gas pipeline from Turkmenistan.

An Annual 1.2 Trillion cubic feet of supply to Afghanistan, Pakistan and India will serve to keep our NG prices low at home, Not to mention it keeps $$ out of GAZPROM and PUTIN's pockets - Turmengaz is the major stakeholder -- furthering our interests in Turkmenistan by providing revenue.

 

If you're counting that is $15.6 Billion a year in Natural Gas at the average US retail rate of $13/thousand cubic feet.

 

Edited by karlydee2

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11 minutes ago, karlydee2 said:

1. Most of the open source info regarding DPRK can be found at 38 North -- They are run out of Johns Hopkins -- they get info [somehow].

2.  multiple: Afghanistan sits smack dab between

IRAN, and the the Former Soviet Islamic States (Kyrgystan, Uzbekistan,Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, and Kazakhstan) - and Pakistan

Pakistan, and the the Former Soviet Islamic States (Kyrgystan, Uzbekistan,Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, and Kazakhstan) -and Iran

so -- we are there to stabilize and keep our interests in the former STANS  -- and to prevent a unified Islamic Superstate, or a war between Pakistan and Iran (Pakistan is Nuclear).

Second -- not oil, GAS baby GAS

Now the big fish -- its called the Turkmenistan–Afghanistan–Pakistan–India Pipeline.  A massive Natural Gas pipeline from Turkmenistan.

An Annual 1.2 Trillion cubic feet of supply to Afghanistan, Pakistan and India will serve to keep our NG prices low at home.

Ahhh while your points are all vaid. It is not the real reason. Do you use a cell....of course you do...and what type of battery does it use. Also to you have an electric car or hybrid....and what type of battery does it use.

Lithium batteries.....and guess who has the easiest and purest lithium UNTAPPED resources in the world? You guessed it. Relative to the top 10....found in the link group below.

Here are a BUNCH of interesting reads............................

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&q=lithium+ore+afghanistan&oq=Lithium+ore+Af&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i22i30k1l2.1532.7229.0.9918.15.14.0.0.0.0.131.1447.0j13.13.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.13.1441.0..0j35i39k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i20i264k1j0i20i263k1j0i10k1.0.Vdh9Ibb3zR0

Oh and you forgot Opium as a resource.

Gas..... I thought DC was the largest producer of gas in the world. :lol:

Edited by Guido2

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10 minutes ago, Guido2 said:

Ahhh while your points are all vaid. It is not the real reason. Do you use a cell....of course you do...and what type of battery does it use. Also to you have an electric car or hybrid....and what type of battery does it use.

Lithium batteries.....and guess who has the easiest and purest lithium UNTAPPED resources in the world? You guessed it. Relative to the top 10....found in the link group below.

Here are a BUNCH of interesting reads............................

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&q=lithium+ore+afghanistan&oq=Lithium+ore+Af&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i22i30k1l2.1532.7229.0.9918.15.14.0.0.0.0.131.1447.0j13.13.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.13.1441.0..0j35i39k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i20i264k1j0i20i263k1j0i10k1.0.Vdh9Ibb3zR0

Oh and you forgot Opium as a resource.

Gas..... I thought DC was the largest producer of gas in the world. :lol:

Not really -- the infrastructure to actually get that lithium anywhere is 3-4 decades to build. And the risk/reward is too high for any real development due to the constant insurgency that neither the US, nor the Soviets managed to stem.

 BOTH SUPERPOWERS in the world have failed in 40 years of warfare to pacify Afghanistan -- nope their mineral wealth is gonna be locked up for quite a while.

The LITHIUM SCARE is just that -- if china lowers production -- Chile and Australia will just increase it -- after letting the price go up a bit.

"The world’s largest hard-rock mine is the Greenbushes mine in Australia, and the bulk of the world’s lithium brine production comes from salars in Chile and Argentina. Most large lithium reserves are in Chile, and the prolific “lithium triangle”spans Chile, Argentina and Bolivia. Australia was the world’s largest lithium producer in 2016, and it was followed by Chile and Argentina."

https://investingnews.com/daily/resource-investing/energy-investing/lithium-investing/overview-lithium-stocks/

 

And I think most opium coming to the US is now grown in Mexico - they are the #3 world exporter.

Edited by karlydee2

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22 minutes ago, karlydee2 said:

Not really -- the infrastructure to actually get that lithium anywhere is 3-4 decades to build. And the risk/reward is too high for any real development due to the constant insurgency that neither the US, nor the Soviets managed to stem.

 BOTH SUPERPOWERS in the world have failed in 40 years of warfare to pacify Afghanistan -- nope their mineral wealth is gonna be locked up for quite a while.

The LITHIUM SCARE is just that -- if china lowers production -- Chile and Australia will just increase it -- after letting the price go up a bit.

"The world’s largest hard-rock mine is the Greenbushes mine in Australia, and the bulk of the world’s lithium brine production comes from salars in Chile and Argentina. Most large lithium reserves are in Chile, and the prolific “lithium triangle”spans Chile, Argentina and Bolivia. Australia was the world’s largest lithium producer in 2016, and it was followed by Chile and Argentina."

https://investingnews.com/daily/resource-investing/energy-investing/lithium-investing/overview-lithium-stocks/

 

And I think most opium coming to the US is now grown in Mexico - they are the #3 world exporter.

Again all good points. And I believe that both our collections are the sumtotal of why we are there. Don't  you agree.

:Your numbers are about present producers....not, potential producers....that is what i am talking about.

However I will add one thing....unlike gooooberment....businesses are foward thinkers....I don't think it is a strech to say that ....while gas is a resource they would be happy to exploit for a time. They realize that with the social/eco climate being what it is in regard to gas/pet products that too will wind down in favor of electric....and associated batteries.

And as you pointed out....the mechanisms and such fo mine Lithiium ore are not in place at great magnitude. Is in not logical to assume that big business is influencing our involvement with Afganistan with the idea that they can put those things in place when needed? Especially since from my readings, those mines are the purest and riches and easiest to get at than any other place in the world?

Edited by Guido2

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4 hours ago, Guido2 said:

.

And as you pointed out....the mechanisms and such fo mine Lithiium ore are not in place at great magnitude. Is in not logical to assume that big business is influencing our involvement with Afganistan with the idea that they can put those things in place when needed? Especially since from my readings, those mines are the purest and riches and easiest to get at than any other place in the world?

Not really,

Afghanistan is for the most part a very inaccessible country -- meaning not much transportation infrastructure.

 

And the deposits that are easy to get to are dry lake bed -- just like Chile, only not as extensive. - Maybe some overhype

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Posting nonsense to Twitter? Is that the one thing that will work?

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9 minutes ago, bmorepunk said:

Posting nonsense to Twitter? Is that the one thing that will work?

I think Trump is going to draft his sons to go over there commando style. :mellow:

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1 hour ago, Calamari said:

I think Trump is going to draft his sons to go over there commando style. :mellow:

IS he deliberately trying to goad KJU??

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40 minutes ago, karlydee2 said:

IS he deliberately trying to goad KJU??

It's looked that way for quite some time... a bully daring anyone to take the first punch.

This 'Preznit' is becoming a true danger to the Republic.

It's time...

 

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I think it's that "one weird trick" you can never quite figure out from all the internet ads.

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