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OriginalColtsFan

Perriman

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1 hour ago, johnpolitics said:

If Perriman was NOT a first round pick he would be gone already. Only a raving nut would not be able to see that. 

Well....you said it.

;)

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Posted (edited)

I only read the first page of posts. Honestly, Perriman frustrates me too much to dwell on him. Reading all the pages of this thread, would bum me out. For those who also follow the O's, I liken him to Ubaldo. He gets to keep playing, because he cost so much. Obviously not in terms of $$$ amount, since he's a rookie. But in terms of the value of a first round pick.

Ken mentioned that he's not a #1 receiver, and we shouldn't expect #1 production. I don't disagree with that. He obviously isn't a #1. But a 1st round pick comes with expectations. Perhaps it's unfair to expect BP to be better than he's capable of. But that's what happens when you get picked in the 1st round. 

Which leads to my question. When is the soonest we can expect to see him go? Since he was drafted in the back half of the round, are all his rookie contract seasons guaranteed? 

Edited by weird-O

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I expect Perriman to be gone next year. But don't go by me; I was sure Harbaugh would get fired, and then when that didn't happen I was sure Marty Morningwood and/or the Dean of Peeing would get canned. And that didn't happen...

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7 minutes ago, Evil Yoda said:

I expect Perriman to be gone next year. But don't go by me; I was sure Harbaugh would get fired, and then when that didn't happen I was sure Marty Morningwood and/or the Dean of Peeing would get canned. And that didn't happen...

LOL. Yeah. This team is hard to predict.

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2 hours ago, OriginalColtsFan said:

LOL. Yeah. This team is hard to predict.

And in other ways, they're so easy to predict that you can set your watch to them.  Maybe their first play from scrimmage Sunday will be an end around with Perriman. That would practically be a revelation for this monotonous offense.  If he can't catch the ball, let him run with it.  At least try SOMETHING! 

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Do any of you actually pay attention to what you cry about on here? In one instance, everyone wants to complain about the offensive line and how even the best quarterback of all time could not put up decent numbers behind this offensive line. You then cry about how much of a bust Perriman is because he isn’t putting up decent numbers. You realize the quarterback can’t put up decent numbers because the offensive line is so bad but you expect decent numbers from Perriman. How is that logical? Is Maclin a bust? What are his numbers? Do you expect big time numbers from the receivers and bad numbers from the quarterback? 

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2 hours ago, RavingManiac said:

Do any of you actually pay attention to what you cry about on here? In one instance, everyone wants to complain about the offensive line and how even the best quarterback of all time could not put up decent numbers behind this offensive line. You then cry about how much of a bust Perriman is because he isn’t putting up decent numbers. You realize the quarterback can’t put up decent numbers because the offensive line is so bad but you expect decent numbers from Perriman. How is that logical? Is Maclin a bust? What are his numbers? Do you expect big time numbers from the receivers and bad numbers from the quarterback? 

Almost all of the comments about Perriman are based on his inability to hold on to the ball.  Pretty hard to put up decent numbers while the ball is bouncing off your hands and chest. 

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On 10/4/2017 at 7:17 PM, jamesdean said:

And in other ways, they're so easy to predict that you can set your watch to them.  Maybe their first play from scrimmage Sunday will be an end around with Perriman. That would practically be a revelation for this monotonous offense.  If he can't catch the ball, let him run with it.  At least try SOMETHING! 

I was at the Ravens @ Colts playoff game several years back and the Colts fans were laughing so hard: "LET ME GUESS...HAND OFF TO RAY RICE, UP THE MIDDLE". And, sure enough...it was a hand off to Ray Rice, up the middle. (That was the game that a full back dropped a pass right in his hands near the goal line. The Ravens didn't score many points that game and it was a long bus ride home.)

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2 hours ago, RavingManiac said:

Do any of you actually pay attention to what you cry about on here? In one instance, everyone wants to complain about the offensive line and how even the best quarterback of all time could not put up decent numbers behind this offensive line. You then cry about how much of a bust Perriman is because he isn’t putting up decent numbers. You realize the quarterback can’t put up decent numbers because the offensive line is so bad but you expect decent numbers from Perriman. How is that logical? Is Maclin a bust? What are his numbers? Do you expect big time numbers from the receivers and bad numbers from the quarterback? 

what do you think their problem is Maniac? Surely they seem to have one/several.

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1 hour ago, OriginalColtsFan said:

I was at the Ravens @ Colts playoff game several years back and the Colts fans were laughing so hard: "LET ME GUESS...HAND OFF TO RAY RICE, UP THE MIDDLE". And, sure enough...it was a hand off to Ray Rice, up the middle. (That was the game that a full back dropped a pass right in his hands near the goal line. The Ravens didn't score many points that game and it was a long bus ride home.)

That's been the Ravens trademark for years- boring, predictable play calling, especially in the passing game.  And the worse their execution is, the more boring it gets.  So, to me, if you're going to approach the game like that, just run the damn ball until you've run it so many times, the defense is babbling to themselves.  I'd just go for broke in Oakland.  I'd run it 30-40 times and hopefully keep Oakland's offense on the side line long enough so Justin Tucker can kick 5 FG's and maybe they can squeeze a touchdown out the onslaught too.  I hope it's a repeat of Cincinnati and Flacco throws the ball about 15 times.  Collins, Allen, West, Flacco, Perriman, Campanaro, Wallace...all of them....let them all run the ball in one form or another.  Naturally, that won't happen and they'll lose but a person can dream, right? 

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38 minutes ago, jamesdean said:

That's been the Ravens trademark for years- boring, predictable play calling, especially in the passing game.  And the worse their execution is, the more boring it gets.  So, to me, if you're going to approach the game like that, just run the damn ball until you've run it so many times, the defense is babbling to themselves.  I'd just go for broke in Oakland.  I'd run it 30-40 times and hopefully keep Oakland's offense on the side line long enough so Justin Tucker can kick 5 FG's and maybe they can squeeze a touchdown out the onslaught too.  I hope it's a repeat of Cincinnati and Flacco throws the ball about 15 times.  Collins, Allen, West, Flacco, Perriman, Campanaro, Wallace...all of them....let them all run the ball in one form or another.  Naturally, that won't happen and they'll lose but a person can dream, right? 

IIRC, there have been two exceptions. The year they had the three-headed monster with Rice, McGahee, and McClain (I think HE was the guy who dropped the pass near the end zone against the Colts, but I'm not sure.). They also had LoNeal! Damn. I STILL remember that game against Dallas when LoNeal was 50 yards down field blocking on a running play/TD. DAMN I liked him! And when Kubiak was here.

OK. So let me get this straight: You think the Ravens should run the ball, right?

;)

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3 hours ago, RavingManiac said:

Do any of you actually pay attention to what you cry about on here? In one instance, everyone wants to complain about the offensive line and how even the best quarterback of all time could not put up decent numbers behind this offensive line. You then cry about how much of a bust Perriman is because he isn’t putting up decent numbers. You realize the quarterback can’t put up decent numbers because the offensive line is so bad but you expect decent numbers from Perriman. How is that logical? Is Maclin a bust? What are his numbers? Do you expect big time numbers from the receivers and bad numbers from the quarterback? 

The line has problems but Perriman is the Roberto Duran (hands of stone) of WR's. Need to try to run the ball and Flacco can't trust Perriman. Use the TE's as blockers. 

 

To quote HOF Bill Parcells, "Run with Power"

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3 hours ago, mikemor1 said:

what do you think their problem is Maniac? Surely they seem to have one/several.

I know most of you guys want to say the problems are the offensive line and the offensive coordinator in that order. At some point, I would hope that common sense would kick in at some point and the people on this forum would say to themselves, “We have been through around five or so offensive coordinators and the offense still sucks. Maybe the problems lie elsewhere.” 

I mean how could Caldwell call such bad games during the regular season and then call such great games during the playoffs?   

As stupid and idiotic and inept as you guys try and make these guys out to be, I can assure you they are not. You guys know the solutions to the problems on offense just by watching one game a week yet the Ravens are paying multi millions of dollars for coaches who cannot figure out the solutions and they work with these players and go over game film every single day. In fact, one guy on here has come up with a formation that can get 4 yards rushing every play. He knows this. This board knows this. Why cant anybody in the Ravens organization come up with this same formation? I bet this person would email this secret formation to them for free yet MM is making millions and can’t come up with the same thing. 

When do we start to think maybe Flacco is the problem? The owner called him out last off-season. Why? Is it because the owner is just as clueless as the rest of the organization? Is it more likely that Flacco played bad last year? Is MM just a terrible offensive coordinator like all the others or is it more likely Flacco is just playing bad? Do you guys really think firing MM is going  to all of the sudden make Flacco play better? Do you think any of the past and present coaches review game film to figure out Flacco’s strengths and weaknesses? 

Flacco is the problem. It’s pretty clear to me. I know most of you think that is absurd and it could never be his fault. The quarterback is the one position that can make the whole offense look good or bad. The good news is I believe the problems are mental with him which, in my opinion, explains why he is so dominant in the playoffs and not the regular season. It also explains why he is so hot and cold from quarter to quarter and half to half. 

The offensive line is a close second. I think the line would have been pretty good if not for all the injuries.

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LOL. The sign of a very unclear mind.

;)

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On 10/4/2017 at 4:11 PM, weird-O said:

I only read the first page of posts. Honestly, Perriman frustrates me too much to dwell on him. Reading all the pages of this thread, would bum me out. For those who also follow the O's, I liken him to Ubaldo. He gets to keep playing, because he cost so much. Obviously not in terms of $$$ amount, since he's a rookie. But in terms of the value of a first round pick.

Ken mentioned that he's not a #1 receiver, and we shouldn't expect #1 production. I don't disagree with that. He obviously isn't a #1. But a 1st round pick comes with expectations. Perhaps it's unfair to expect BP to be better than he's capable of. But that's what happens when you get picked in the 1st round. 

Which leads to my question. When is the soonest we can expect to see him go? Since he was drafted in the back half of the round, are all his rookie contract seasons guaranteed? 

Most four-year contracts for first-rounders are fully guaranteed, particularly for the early first rounders. After year three, teams have until the following March to decide whether or not to pick up the fifth-year option. At this point, I'd say Perriman could be heading into next season playing for his NFL life.

A team could decide to release a player before the four-year term is up, particularly if the contract contains some sort of offset provision.

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5 hours ago, mdrunning said:

Most four-year contracts for first-rounders are fully guaranteed, particularly for the early first rounders. After year three, teams have until the following March to decide whether or not to pick up the fifth-year option. At this point, I'd say Perriman could be heading into next season playing for his NFL life.

A team could decide to release a player before the four-year term is up, particularly if the contract contains some sort of offset provision.

It's not "Ozzie's way", however, to cut loose first round draft picks early. You know that.

;)

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8 hours ago, OriginalColtsFan said:

LOL. The sign of a very unclear mind.

;)

I don't know how "unclear" the mind is but it's good to see he's still on the Ravens payroll. 

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, jamesdean said:

I don't know how "unclear" the mind is but it's good to see he's still on the Ravens payroll. 

His logic (or attempts at logic) are so contorted and so twisted that he's beyond just being an annoyance. I think he's got some serious mental problems.

For example, the O-line is a clear problem. Perriman dropping passes is a clear problem. They both exist. One doesn't cancel the other one out. Yet he comes along and tries to tie two essentially irrelevant pieces together to make some sort of point or argument. When you're trying to tie two pieces together to make an argument that have nothing to do with one another, it's a sign of an unclear mind.

Edited by OriginalColtsFan

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11 hours ago, RavingManiac said:

I know most of you guys want to say the problems are the offensive line and the offensive coordinator in that order. At some point, I would hope that common sense would kick in at some point and the people on this forum would say to themselves, “We have been through around five or so offensive coordinators and the offense still sucks. Maybe the problems lie elsewhere.” 

I mean how could Caldwell call such bad games during the regular season and then call such great games during the playoffs?   

As stupid and idiotic and inept as you guys try and make these guys out to be, I can assure you they are not. You guys know the solutions to the problems on offense just by watching one game a week yet the Ravens are paying multi millions of dollars for coaches who cannot figure out the solutions and they work with these players and go over game film every single day. In fact, one guy on here has come up with a formation that can get 4 yards rushing every play. He knows this. This board knows this. Why cant anybody in the Ravens organization come up with this same formation? I bet this person would email this secret formation to them for free yet MM is making millions and can’t come up with the same thing. 

When do we start to think maybe Flacco is the problem? The owner called him out last off-season. Why? Is it because the owner is just as clueless as the rest of the organization? Is it more likely that Flacco played bad last year? Is MM just a terrible offensive coordinator like all the others or is it more likely Flacco is just playing bad? Do you guys really think firing MM is going  to all of the sudden make Flacco play better? Do you think any of the past and present coaches review game film to figure out Flacco’s strengths and weaknesses? 

Flacco is the problem. It’s pretty clear to me. I know most of you think that is absurd and it could never be his fault. The quarterback is the one position that can make the whole offense look good or bad. The good news is I believe the problems are mental with him which, in my opinion, explains why he is so dominant in the playoffs and not the regular season. It also explains why he is so hot and cold from quarter to quarter and half to half. 

The offensive line is a close second. I think the line would have been pretty good if not for all the injuries.

So you think Perriman might play better on another team with a different QB?  Maybe, he may get his chance someday. Unless he catches on fire, I don't see them renewing him.  IDK, the Raven's didn't renew Torrey Smith, and he's been no great shakes elsewhere, and he was better than Perriman.

And then there are all these injuries.  What do you make of it? I don't know what to make of it. I just know it's the one sure thing going on with this team, for the past 3-4yrs now.  Like OCF said, they lose a player a game.... I'm baffled. Sometimes I also wonder if Flacco would be playing better if he was on another team?  They all seem to like each other, yet very little on the field chemistry, at least on the offense.  Baffling. 

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Posted (edited)

I don't agree the offensive line was "pretty good" before the injuries. There's Stanley and Yanda and I think one other draft pick, and a bunch of undrafted free agents. Occasionally one of those guys has a couple of good years. Or he's a guy (Burfict comes to mind) who has a ten cent head to go with his athletic gifts. But overall there is a reason they weren't drafted, and it's not because every single scouting department missed them. Now Yanda is gone and they're really bad. Joe is part of the problem because he's not a good leader; he wants a coach to tell him precisely what to do (he has said this), and when you need a QB to pick up an offense and carry it, he's not the man for that. He will have a serviceable NFL career for which he will be overpaid (all but a very few QBs are, it's the nature of that position), and then he will retire. He will never wear a gold jacket.

The defense concerns me far more. It's supposedly an upgraded unit, but I see some of the same problems I saw last year: ineffective pass rush, little to no ability to pressure quarterbacks, and mistakes in pass coverage (the second one probably contributing to the third). I think that's because Pees simply isn't innovative enough for the NFL and his schemes do not fool offenses.

For the most part, Harbs does a mediocre job selecting coordinators.

Ozzie routinely whiffs on receivers, to the point that they ought to give that job to DaCosta (unless - horrors - it's really him that's whiffing). It might even by time to throw Ozzie a nice dinner and give him a fancy gold watch. What concerns me is that DaCosta is said to be good, but how long will he wait for Ozzie to pull the pin?

Edited by Evil Yoda
Added missing sentence

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On 10/6/2017 at 10:42 PM, RavingManiac said:

I know most of you guys want to say the problems are the offensive line and the offensive coordinator in that order. At some point, I would hope that common sense would kick in at some point and the people on this forum would say to themselves, “We have been through around five or so offensive coordinators and the offense still sucks. Maybe the problems lie elsewhere.” 

I mean how could Caldwell call such bad games during the regular season and then call such great games during the playoffs?   

As stupid and idiotic and inept as you guys try and make these guys out to be, I can assure you they are not. You guys know the solutions to the problems on offense just by watching one game a week yet the Ravens are paying multi millions of dollars for coaches who cannot figure out the solutions and they work with these players and go over game film every single day. In fact, one guy on here has come up with a formation that can get 4 yards rushing every play. He knows this. This board knows this. Why cant anybody in the Ravens organization come up with this same formation? I bet this person would email this secret formation to them for free yet MM is making millions and can’t come up with the same thing. 

When do we start to think maybe Flacco is the problem? The owner called him out last off-season. Why? Is it because the owner is just as clueless as the rest of the organization? Is it more likely that Flacco played bad last year? Is MM just a terrible offensive coordinator like all the others or is it more likely Flacco is just playing bad? Do you guys really think firing MM is going  to all of the sudden make Flacco play better? Do you think any of the past and present coaches review game film to figure out Flacco’s strengths and weaknesses? 

Flacco is the problem. It’s pretty clear to me. I know most of you think that is absurd and it could never be his fault. The quarterback is the one position that can make the whole offense look good or bad. The good news is I believe the problems are mental with him which, in my opinion, explains why he is so dominant in the playoffs and not the regular season. It also explains why he is so hot and cold from quarter to quarter and half to half. 

The offensive line is a close second. I think the line would have been pretty good if not for all the injuries.

To address your belief that since none of us are making millions of dollars and working day in and day out with these players, coaches, and scouts, that we don't see the internal things they do, you are correct.  But this is a forum, a message board, and we all have opinions.  Just like the countless callers who call in voicing their opinions to sports talk radio.  Just because these guys are paid millions of dollars doesn't mean they always get it right.  Ask Cleveland fans about how well spent the millions have been on their front office.  

You seem to want to make Flacco the entire problem for what is ailing the Ravens.  I will agree that he is part of the problem.  I have never thought Flacco was elite.  Not even with the great playoff run he had.  He is not Brady with Brady's ability to quickly read a defense and his quick release.  He is not Roethlisberger with his ability to pump fake, freeze a defense, step away from pressure and quickly spot an open receiver.  But I have always felt he was in that second tier of QBs that could lead you to a SB win given the right people around him.  He proved that once.  It is true that his mechanics have regressed and he appears to be struggling more than he ever has.  But where is the coaching leadership that should be there to get him back to what he was?  Why was he so effective under Gary Kubiak, and since then nobody has been able to design game plans that work as well for him as Kubiak did, even thought the blue print is there for anyone to see?  

And why does the FO get a pass?  Ozzie Newsome has been elevated to God-like status around here, yet in 20 years you can count the number of offensive skill players he has produced on one hand.  The only possible hall of famer he has drafted might be Jamal Lewis.  The FO has tried and whiffed on how many wide receivers?  He's done a decent job on defense, but much of that was because he drafted HOF Ray Lewis.  How many defensive players left Baltimore never to be heard from again?  Hartwell, Thomas....they both got big contracts and flamed out.  Maybe that's because Ray Lewis made them all better around him.  Once they left, they were all ordinary players that ended up getting released.  Since Ray Lewis retired, the Ravens are a .500 team with only one year making the playoffs and a 1-1 playoff record.

This past draft the Ravens chose to go defensive heavy, despite the fact that the offense was a huge part of their problem last year.  Maybe there is a two year plan where they will draft offensive heavy next year.  But that doesn't help this year.  You can't say we spent the offseason trying to close the gap with Pittsburgh while totally ignoring the offense with the exception of bringing in two older players with injury issues that are once again hurt.  The first test of that strategy was a failure as Pittsburgh dominated the Ravens at home for an entire half.  When all was said and done, it was both Pittsburgh's defense and offense which looked better on Sunday.  Terrell Suggs looked real good coming out of the tunnel with whatever mask he had on, then disappeared when it was game time.  He has looked old and slow in the last two games.  

Bottom line, Flacco has not looked good but the offensive problems are far from only his fault.  The offensive line was not very good to begin with, Yanda's injury has made it one of the worst in the league.  The defense looked improved but got taken apart by Jacksonville and then handled by Pittsburgh.  Brandon Williams being out has hurt it big time.  The secondary started off great, but has since made mistakes.  The team simply looks like a .500 team at this point.  We will see how the last 12 games of the season go.  You are what your record says you are.  Make all the excuses you want, but the record after 16 games will be the final decision on how good the organization did this year.  

 

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8 hours ago, cprenegade said:

To address your belief that since none of us are making millions of dollars and working day in and day out with these players, coaches, and scouts, that we don't see the internal things they do, you are correct.  But this is a forum, a message board, and we all have opinions.  Just like the countless callers who call in voicing their opinions to sports talk radio.  Just because these guys are paid millions of dollars doesn't mean they always get it right.  Ask Cleveland fans about how well spent the millions have been on their front office.  

You seem to want to make Flacco the entire problem for what is ailing the Ravens.  I will agree that he is part of the problem.  I have never thought Flacco was elite.  Not even with the great playoff run he had.  He is not Brady with Brady's ability to quickly read a defense and his quick release.  He is not Roethlisberger with his ability to pump fake, freeze a defense, step away from pressure and quickly spot an open receiver.  But I have always felt he was in that second tier of QBs that could lead you to a SB win given the right people around him.  He proved that once.  It is true that his mechanics have regressed and he appears to be struggling more than he ever has.  But where is the coaching leadership that should be there to get him back to what he was?  Why was he so effective under Gary Kubiak, and since then nobody has been able to design game plans that work as well for him as Kubiak did, even thought the blue print is there for anyone to see?  

And why does the FO get a pass?  Ozzie Newsome has been elevated to God-like status around here, yet in 20 years you can count the number of offensive skill players he has produced on one hand.  The only possible hall of famer he has drafted might be Jamal Lewis.  The FO has tried and whiffed on how many wide receivers?  He's done a decent job on defense, but much of that was because he drafted HOF Ray Lewis.  How many defensive players left Baltimore never to be heard from again?  Hartwell, Thomas....they both got big contracts and flamed out.  Maybe that's because Ray Lewis made them all better around him.  Once they left, they were all ordinary players that ended up getting released.  Since Ray Lewis retired, the Ravens are a .500 team with only one year making the playoffs and a 1-1 playoff record.

This past draft the Ravens chose to go defensive heavy, despite the fact that the offense was a huge part of their problem last year.  Maybe there is a two year plan where they will draft offensive heavy next year.  But that doesn't help this year.  You can't say we spent the offseason trying to close the gap with Pittsburgh while totally ignoring the offense with the exception of bringing in two older players with injury issues that are once again hurt.  The first test of that strategy was a failure as Pittsburgh dominated the Ravens at home for an entire half.  When all was said and done, it was both Pittsburgh's defense and offense which looked better on Sunday.  Terrell Suggs looked real good coming out of the tunnel with whatever mask he had on, then disappeared when it was game time.  He has looked old and slow in the last two games.  

Bottom line, Flacco has not looked good but the offensive problems are far from only his fault.  The offensive line was not very good to begin with, Yanda's injury has made it one of the worst in the league.  The defense looked improved but got taken apart by Jacksonville and then handled by Pittsburgh.  Brandon Williams being out has hurt it big time.  The secondary started off great, but has since made mistakes.  The team simply looks like a .500 team at this point.  We will see how the last 12 games of the season go.  You are what your record says you are.  Make all the excuses you want, but the record after 16 games will be the final decision on how good the organization did this year.  

 

Ozzie drafted HOF Ogden.

Joe needs a running game. Ray Rice was just as responsible for 2012 as Joe. 

I love Eli Manning but is Oline and lack of running game is hurting him. In 2011 the Giants had the worse running game in the league but the Oline was great and gave him time to hit his WR's. 

You quoted the great Bill Parcells when you said You are what your record says you are., He also said, Run with power. 

Only a raving nut would think this is a 11-5 or any type of playoff team.

Could Joe's back still be an issue?

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great points all around. of course joe isn't the only problem. but he carries a lion's share of the responsibility as the leader with the huge contract. that's life in the nfl. this is what he signed up for. that notwithstanding, football is the ultimate team game, the team is only as strong as it's weakest link.. and we have many weak links. perriman has 2 freaking catches for 11 yards through 4 games in his supposed "break out year". beyond pathetic. the pass blocking has been poor, to say the least. the passing schemes have been poor, no one ever seems to be open beyond 5 yards. on those extremely rare occasions when our receivers actually have a good cushion, joe overthrows, underthrows or the receiver flat out drops the ball.

here it is: they play tentatively, rather than aggressively (see steve smith, anquan boldin, derrick mason, jamal lewis, etc.). i see no attitude at all on offense, other than terrance west, when he breaks off a good run. alex collins has been our best player (if you're willing to take the 8+ yards/carry for 1 fumble per game trade-off). ben watson has performed well, too. that's about it on offense.

this is a telltale year for harbaugh. if this ship isn't righted by year's end, i believe he is gone and it will be quite a different landscape next year. 

there is still a lot of football to be played, however. the focus, attitude and execution must be brought out, starting today. 

 

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And to bring it back to Perriman...

He's a #1 draft pick who can't catch the ball very well.

As far as "causality"...he's not a #3 (barely) because he's been relegated to the #3 position, he's been relegated to the #3 position because he's not good enough to claim anything higher. (That's the false logic of the "Well, he had decent #3 statistics last season". As a #1 draft pick he needs to demonstrate he DESERVES more touches. And the only thing he's demonstrated is that the more touches he gets, the more passes he'll drop.)

As for the whole Joe discussion...I'm going to pass.

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1 hour ago, johnpolitics said:

Ozzie drafted HOF Ogden.

Joe needs a running game. Ray Rice was just as responsible for 2012 as Joe. 

I love Eli Manning but is Oline and lack of running game is hurting him. In 2011 the Giants had the worse running game in the league but the Oline was great and gave him time to hit his WR's. 

You quoted the great Bill Parcells when you said You are what your record says you are., He also said, Run with power. 

Only a raving nut would think this is a 11-5 or any type of playoff team.

Could Joe's back still be an issue?

Yes, I am aware of that.  I was more talking about skill players, QB-WR-RB, but I should have made that clear.  JO was a great draft pick at a time when a lot of people in Baltimore wanted that first pick to be used on the late RB, Lawrence Phillips.  Obviously Ozzie made the right choice.  

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