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OriginalColtsFan

Cap/IR request for mdrunning

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I recently saw some stats on the Ravens IR/wasted cap money for 2015 and 2016 and so far in 2017. I'm not sure of the source, but here is what I saw. Is this really the way it looks, or are there some sort of mitigating factors? Because if not, those figures are really shocking, and explain where a lot of money that could be going elsewhere is going.

In 2016 The Ravens were 2nd worst at 24 on IR. Wasted cap space 16 mil
In 2015 The Ravens were worst in the league at 24 on IR. Wasted cap space $27 mil

And so far in 2017...

2017 injured reserve (so far) by team:

1. Ravens 16 - wasted cap space 17mil
2. Panthers 14
2. Jaguars 14
4. Patriots 12
5. 49ers 12
6. Jets 12

Best in 2017:

Cowboys 3
Raiders 3
Steelers 4

Edited by OriginalColtsFan

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I assume those numbers you're citing are based on players' cap numbers for the given season.

Unfortunately, yes, all of those injured reserve players count against a team's cap. That's why I cautioned people against getting too wrapped up in the Brandon Williams restructure since it was likely a move necessitated by the mounting injuries and the team's need to not only account for those players, but their replacements as well. Once the season starts, everyone counts. All teams have to carry some cap space into the season for that very reason.

Now it's possible the Ravens may be able to recoup some of that cap space next year depending on how the respective contracts are structured, particularly if they come with incentive clauses. For example, if any of their IR players had incentives written into their contracts for certain performance criteria, those typically fall under the category of Likely to Be Earned and count against a team's cap the year they are scheduled. So if someone like Crockett Gilmore or Tavon Young had such incentives for this season, those amounts would be credited to next year's cap since neither player will obviously collect. (I don't know how many Ravens actually have such provisions; I'm just giving examples.)

What jacks the Ravens cap liability for this season is the injury to Yanda and his $9 million cap number, just as it did in 2015 when Flacco went down. Those are the risks of restructuring contracts and deferring obligations for down the road, as the Ravens did with Yanda last season. It

As for the money going elsewhere, well, no, it wouldn't have gone anywhere else. We're not talking dead cap in this instance. And dead money is a much bigger issue this season for the Ravens than cap money sitting on IR. With the departure of several highly paid players this summer--Jeremy Zuttah, Kyle Arrington, Timmy Jernigan and Shareece Wright--the Ravens are carrying some $20 million in dead cap money this season. 

The good news for the Ravens is that 2018 looks to be about as clean a slate as they could hope for cap-wise. With the cap expected to spike upward by about $10 million next season, and with no "must-sign" free agents pending or past obligations taking up valuable cap space, they should be in pretty good shape in that regard.

 

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Thanks a lot, man! Cap structure really makes my head hurt, and you are the Capologist Supreme! And so is it accurate to say that while Joe's $24M (+/-) in cap money is among the highest in the league, $20M in dead cap money for players who aren't even here (Zuttah, Arrington, Jernigan, and Wright) is as big a hit and those players aren't even here?! (Plus all these injuries do end up impacting the overall cap construction if only indirectly, along with losing the players' contributions on the field.)

Also, at some point don't the Ravens have to start considering the impact of carrying players like Urban, who has missed 3 out of 4 seasons with the team?

And is my math correct that this year, the Ravens have $37M in money tied up in players who are not even on the field? ($17M for injured players + $20M for dead cap space for players who were cut)

Edited by OriginalColtsFan

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The Ravens seem to have been utterly snake-bitten by the injury bug during much of the Harbaugh era.  I know some of it is plain bad luck, but some of it also has to do with either who they are signing, or their training regimens.  It's beyond coincidental at this point and time.

It's frustrating.  The 2014 and 2016 teams could have been special.  We'll see with the 2017 team, but what looked like a promising season is unravelling fast.

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1 hour ago, alienrace said:

The Ravens seem to have been utterly snake-bitten by the injury bug during much of the Harbaugh era.  I know some of it is plain bad luck, but some of it also has to do with either who they are signing, or their training regimens.  It's beyond coincidental at this point and time.

It's frustrating.  The 2014 and 2016 teams could have been special.  We'll see with the 2017 team, but what looked like a promising season is unravelling fast.

Well, you try to always look on the bright side, and while I've given you a bunch of chit over the years for it, I understand it. And maybe it's a matter of perspective. There's a rabid, well-informed poster here (who shall remain nameless) who stated (privately) at the outset of this season that given the focus on the D, and total ignoring of the O-line, he'd already written this season off. You, OTOH, saw a promising season on the horizon. Neither one is inherently right or wrong, but from my perspective, as soon as I saw the total ignoring of the O-line in particular and of the offense in general (aside from Maclin), I didn't see a promising season in 2017 at all.

And as you pointed out, bringing in injury-prone players + keeping injury-prone players = no coincidence. And there's also the training techniques that have to be questioned. Then, when you add in $20M for players who weren't all that great to begin with, and who aren't even here now, and who are eating up that much cap space, it's a management issue. There's just no way around it. $37M for players who either aren't even on the team, or aren't on the field. And we're only 3 games into the season. That IR cap number is bound to grow as the season progresses. No team can operate efficiently with those kinds of numbers.

Edited by OriginalColtsFan

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On 9/26/2017 at 11:01 AM, alienrace said:

The Ravens seem to have been utterly snake-bitten by the injury bug during much of the Harbaugh era.  I know some of it is plain bad luck, but some of it also has to do with either who they are signing, or their training regimens.  It's beyond coincidental at this point and time.

It's frustrating.  The 2014 and 2016 teams could have been special.  We'll see with the 2017 team, but what looked like a promising season is unravelling fast.

It extends back to the Billick-era. 

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I don't know if it's the Ravens more so than other teams but I really do think that most of these guys are over trained.  I don't see how you can go from a football field, play for 3 hours, get the crap beat out of you and then hit the weight room within a day or two, followed by more practice, more weight sessions, etc...there isn't enough steroids or HGH in the world that's going to allow your body to heal from all of that.  Anyone who's ever worked out in their adult life learn the basic principles and importance of rest right from the beginning.  Or they learn the hard way because of injuries.  You always hear the players saying that they're never 100% during the season and are battling some kind of injury.  I think most of it is preventable over the long haul.  I've weight trained for years and I can tell you that putting your body through what these guys do is a recipe for disaster.  It's just a matter of when, not if. 

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21 minutes ago, jamesdean said:

I don't know if it's the Ravens more so than other teams but I really do think that most of these guys are over trained.  I don't see how you can go from a football field, play for 3 hours, get the crap beat out of you and then hit the weight room within a day or two, followed by more practice, more weight sessions, etc...there isn't enough steroids or HGH in the world that's going to allow your body to heal from all of that.  Anyone who's ever worked out in their adult life learn the basic principles and importance of rest right from the beginning.  Or they learn the hard way because of injuries.  You always hear the players saying that they're never 100% during the season and are battling some kind of injury.  I think most of it is preventable over the long haul.  I've weight trained for years and I can tell you that putting your body through what these guys do is a recipe for disaster.  It's just a matter of when, not if. 

The stats would seem to indicate that that is in fact the case. So either the Ravens are doing something different in their training regimen, or they're bringing in/keeping injury-prone players, or both.

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1 hour ago, OriginalColtsFan said:

The stats would seem to indicate that that is in fact the case. So either the Ravens are doing something different in their training regimen, or they're bringing in/keeping injury-prone players, or both.

To be fair, I never really look at the injury report of other teams, although the obvious, season ending ones will be highlighted in media outlets.  All teams have to deal with it but maybe you're right.  Maybe the Ravens injuries are more frequent and detrimental to the team.  Either way, I still say the average NFL player is over trained. 

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By the way, has anyone started a pool on which Raven will have a season ending injury today? 

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36 minutes ago, jamesdean said:

By the way, has anyone started a pool on which Raven will have a season ending injury today? 

I predict Matt Skura.

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1 hour ago, jamesdean said:

To be fair, I never really look at the injury report of other teams, although the obvious, season ending ones will be highlighted in media outlets.  All teams have to deal with it but maybe you're right.  Maybe the Ravens injuries are more frequent and detrimental to the team.  Either way, I still say the average NFL player is over trained. 

As noted above the Ravens has the highest IR rate in 2015 and 2nd highest IR rate in 2016.

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