Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
karlydee2

Simple Existing Feasible Mitigation for Vegas that lets us keep RTBA

28 posts in this topic

HOTEL BASED - - PRIVATE MITIGATION ACTIONS 

A simple glass break alarm, like from a home security system ($50 installed) would have alerted hotel security immediately.

CCD camera's (cheap - a few hundred dollars) mounted around the property (outside on the grounds) with wide angle views of all the rooms would easily detect the muzzle flash and pinpoint the room in seconds.

This could have alerted a hotel security incident strike team-- which can be as armed and dangerous as the hotel desires (private property) to go eliminate the threat.

Installing automated sliding window covers (like metal hurricane window covers -- with a layer of ballistic polymer inside and out) at floors above a certain elevation with wide sight angles (as part of the sniper mitigation program) that would activate upon hearing the ballistic crack of a firearm would also be a technical mitigation -- they could be made such that they are too far away from the room occupant to jam.

But that view all of a sudden costs a lot more

Trying to prevent people from bringing guns into the hotel is not feasible, unless you want lines like Homeland Security at check-in -- and no hotel will want that.

 GOVT MITIGATION ACTIONS 

A network of acoustic sensors like these (this is from 2014 -- the sensors are much better now)

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/xywgva/cities-are-using-hidden-webs-of-acoustic-sensors-to-detect-gunfire

would have pinpointed him in under a minute to the room/floor -- depending on how much the city wanted spend, they could also have controllable cameras that would have been directed to the 3-space position the sensors identified -- showing the big hole in the window

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would such a system have really mattered if he was using an automatic weapon?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, karlydee2 said:

HOTEL BASED - - PRIVATE MITIGATION ACTIONS 

A simple glass break alarm, like from a home security system ($50 installed) would have alerted hotel security immediately.

CCD camera's (cheap - a few hundred dollars) mounted around the property (outside on the grounds) with wide angle views of all the rooms would easily detect the muzzle flash and pinpoint the room in seconds.

This could have alerted a hotel security incident strike team-- which can be as armed and dangerous as the hotel desires (private property) to go eliminate the threat.

Installing automated sliding window covers (like metal hurricane window covers -- with a layer of ballistic polymer inside and out) at floors above a certain elevation with wide sight angles (as part of the sniper mitigation program) that would activate upon hearing the ballistic crack of a firearm would also be a technical mitigation -- they could be made such that they are too far away from the room occupant to jam.

Yea, and after all that they go belly up as nobody wants to spend $800 for a room at the red roof inn that was designed as a safe room. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, MiddleOfTheRoad said:

This is satire, right?

Nope

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Rael said:

Yea, and after all that they go belly up as nobody wants to spend $800 for a room at the red roof inn that was designed as a safe room. 

The only thing that is expensive would be the sliding covers, and they are not really that expensive. 10 ft by 10 ft of 30 gauge steel is $3000

http://hurricaneshuttersflorida.com/quotesystem/quote.php?productid=15&shuttertype=Storm+Panels&orderid_l=3453812&header_track=on&width=120&height=120&noofclear=0&type=5&checkdata=true

-- in bulk that would be probably  closer to $2000 with actuators and ballistic polymer sheeting -- so a $6 Million dollar capital investment for 3000 10 by 10 windows-- which is a tax write off -- but would be entirely recouped by a $10 per room surcharge on the 3309 Mandalay bay hotel rooms in 181 days.

Lets double it to $12 Million and its paid for in 1 year by a $10 per room surcharge

 

SO no, it wouldn't bankrupt anybody 

 

the slides wouldn't happen if no ballistic cracks or glass breaks happen

 

not all rooms would need the anti-sniper automated window coverings

 

Dang -- math is so enlightening

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Completely a nonstarter economic ly.

People will have to sleeping their cars or a park bench while on vacation or business.

Welcome to bizarro world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, jonsensback said:

Completely a nonstarter economic ly.

People will have to sleeping their cars or a park bench while on vacation or business.

Welcome to bizarro world.

I just proved it would be a $10 a night surcharge for a year on rooms that go for hundreds

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, jonsensback said:

Completely a nonstarter economic ly.

People will have to sleeping their cars or a park bench while on vacation or business.

Welcome to bizarro world.

FYI -- the cameras and glass break sensors would be paid for in a week.

The hotel security would have known he was shooting withing 2-3 seconds of glass break, or muzzle flash

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, jonsensback said:

Completely a nonstarter economic ly.

People will have to sleeping their cars or a park bench while on vacation or business.

Welcome to bizarro world.

The only rooms that would actually need it are rooms with high elevations and wide field of view of open area targets  -- most hotels, and hotel rooms would not need the covers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, karlydee2 said:

The only thing that is expensive would be the sliding covers, and they are not really that expensive. 10 ft by 10 ft of 30 gauge steel is $3000

http://hurricaneshuttersflorida.com/quotesystem/quote.php?productid=15&shuttertype=Storm+Panels&orderid_l=3453812&header_track=on&width=120&height=120&noofclear=0&type=5&checkdata=true

-- in bulk that would be probably  closer to $2000 with actuators and ballistic polymer sheeting -- so a $6 Million dollar capital investment for 3000 10 by 10 windows-- which is a tax write off -- but would be entirely recouped by a $10 per room surcharge on the 3309 Mandalay bay hotel rooms in 181 days.

Lets double it to $12 Million and its paid for in 1 year by a $10 per room surcharge

 

SO no, it wouldn't bankrupt anybody 

 

the slides wouldn't happen if no ballistic cracks or glass breaks happen

 

not all rooms would need the anti-sniper automated window coverings

 

Dang -- math is so enlightening

Math certainly does make things clearer.  Let's look at yours.

Your $12M for a ballistic shutter install is closer to accurate that your $6M figure, but there is much more to consider.  Are you planning on maintaining those shutters or do you just expect there will be no failures among the 3,000 windows?  The higher the room rate, the more will be the demand for immediate repair, so you're not going to be able to call some contractor in when something breaks - you'll need on hand staff, with inventory, particularly motors.  Are you planning in testing these devices on a regular basis?  You'll need staff to do that observation.  

You're hanging hundreds of pounds of 30 gauge steel on the frame of a building not designed to take that weight.  Structural changes are likely necessary.  And because you are throwing a lot of additional power requirement against your existing energybase, you'll likely need higher amperage and different, additional panels to take that demand.  Big $$.

You'd better hope that you have a real "flexible" building code as well.

Your hotel security stike force?  Assuming local law code and local law enforcement even lets you do that, you have a big cost issue.  Bad guys don't work 9-5, M-F, so you're going to need 3 people, round the clock.  That 504 additional hours per week or about a dozen folks.  Throw in the additional staff you need to cover sick days, vacation, staff attrition, etc and you're talking 15 people, at a fully loaded cost of $125K - $150K annually.  Then you add the cost of equipping the team, and securing thier gear when they are off shift.  Very big $$.

Cameras are a good idea.  Who is going to monitor the cameras?  Your front desk is busy working with the customer.

And you're going to have an occupancy issue.  Who wants to stay in a resort hotel that looks like a medium-security prison, without the razor wire?

And what constitutes high enough to warrant or not warrant the window covering?  4th floor? 7th floor?  At Camden Yards in Baltimore there is a warehouse with a commanding view of 35,000 people - from about the 4th floor and up.

Your proposal is silly.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Hurricane shutter don't make a hotel look like a prison, they are roled up or hidden behind facade before deployment -- like normal homes.

There are no local codes that prevent use of legal firearms on private property -- anywhere.

30 gauge steel plus ballistic polymer cladding would weigh -- on the high side 40lbs ( 30 gauge is .0125 inches which equates to 7 lbs for a 10 ft by 10 ft window at 7850 kg per cubic meter -- do the math.  The window would weigh more than the cover.

No structural changes are necessary.  The stress from a window washer and his rig would be greater than an affixed shutter system

The point of the cover is knock down of velocity and loss of field of view 

CCD camers need no monitoring -- the image recognition and FFT algorithms are automatic and a muzzle flash froma window is such a high intensity event in the IR spectrum there is no way a camera flash or reflection could be mistaken -- especially after a glass break alarm from the same room.

before you post crap you didn't research -- try some and stop looking foolish

I'm an Engineer and analyst that has assessed such things for years.

 

Edited by Baltimatt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

15 minutes ago, MiddleOfTheRoad said:

 At Camden Yards in Baltimore there is a warehouse with a commanding view of 35,000 people - from about the 4th floor and up.

 

 

Warehouses are not hotels -- access control with guards (which is probably instituted -- or easily could be

 

And you sort of answered your own question for the warehouse 4th floor up

 

FYI there is software that identifies field of view from any window in any building in a city -- yup except for new construction it's all in databases.

Edited by karlydee2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, karlydee2 said:

You are daft

Hurricane shutter don't make a hotel look like a prison, they are roled up or hidden behind facade before deployment -- like normal homes.

There are no local codes that prevent use of legal firearms on private property -- anywhere.

30 gauge steel plus ballistic polymer cladding would weigh -- on the high side 40lbs ( 30 gauge is .0125 inches which equates to 7 lbs for a 10 ft by 10 ft window at 7850 kg per cubic meter -- do the math.  The window would weigh more than the cover.

No structural changes are necessary.  The stress from a window washer and his rig would be greater than an affixed shutter system

The point of the cover is knock down of velocity and loss of field of view 

CCD camers need no monitoring -- the image recognition and FFT algorithms are automatic and a muzzle flash froma window is such a high intensity event in the IR spectrum there is no way a camera flash or reflection could be mistaken -- especially after a glass break alarm from the same room.

before you post crap you didn't research -- try some and stop looking foolish

I'm an Engineer and analyst that has assessed such things for years.

 

Sure.  3,000 boxes holding a rolled up steel curtain on the facade of a glass front building like Mandalay Bay won't make it look like a prison.  You're funny.

One, a hotel while private property, is also a public venue.  You try putting a private security strike force, your words, in that public environment.  The insurance would be astronomical.  At 3,000 windows times 40 pounds, you just added 120,000 pounds to the frame of that building.  And both the windows and your window washer rig are (1) engineered into the frame of the building and two already accounted for; the 120K pounds you're adding is additional weight.

You don't address the additional costs of maintenance, nor the costs of your silly little strike force, nor the loss of occupancy.  You may be an engineer, but if ha nothing to do with facilities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 10/4/2017 at 10:03 PM, MiddleOfTheRoad said:

Sure.  3,000 boxes holding a rolled up steel curtain on the facade of a glass front building like Mandalay Bay won't make it look like a prison.  You're funny.

One, a hotel while private property, is also a public venue.  You try putting a private security strike force, your words, in that public environment.  The insurance would be astronomical.  At 3,000 windows times 40 pounds, you just added 120,000 pounds to the frame of that building.  And both the windows and your window washer rig are (1) engineered into the frame of the building and two already accounted for; the 120K pounds you're adding is additional weight.

You don't address the additional costs of maintenance, nor the costs of your silly little strike force, nor the loss of occupancy.  You may be an engineer, but if ha nothing to do with facilities.

1, The Mandalay Bay is a concrete building with windows affixed to the concrete structure and multiple raceways and tracks for window cleaners and elevators

2. You don't know WTH you are talking about

3. 120, 000 lbs  is less than the windows themselves -- geesh learn some construction engineering

Not to mention a 150 lb person leaning against a window provides more point pressure load and more total load than the shutter system

 

you are not an engineer -- stop going places you can't manage

 

Casinos have private security outfitted with the same things that SWAT has - the full auto

Edited by Baltimatt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Middle, don't forget the insurance the hotel has to carry in case the system fails and a shooter succeeds in committing murder. That won't be cheap, either.

When Maryland was considering linking its criminal and gun registration databases the services administration estimated $1M/year for seven troopers. I'd bet that security force would cost $2M/year or more.

It could possibly be made unobtrusive if designed into the building from the outset. A retrofit would make the facade of the hotel look like a skid row pawnshop. I wouldn't want to stay there. Forty pounds per window is probably optimistic. I would bet that the motors, frames, electrical and steel shutters would weigh much more unless the window was very small.

It would be far less expensive to simply remove the windows. And just as practical.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, Evil Yoda said:

Middle, don't forget the insurance the hotel has to carry in case the system fails and a shooter succeeds in committing murder. That won't be cheap, either.

 

They don't have to carry insurance for nutjobs committing violence, they don't now and no law will hold them liable

DO you think they pay out for a person that breaks a window on purpose and jumps-- if you do you are an idiot

 

Do you think hotels in ocean city are liable for injuries from people throwing or dropping things off balconies -- stupid is as stupid does

Edited by karlydee2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, karlydee2 said:

They don't have to carry insurance for nutjobs committing violence, they don't now and no law will hold them liable

DO you think they pay out for a person that breaks a window on purpose and jumps-- if you do you are an idiot

 

Do you think hotels in ocean city are liable for injuries from people throwing or dropping things off balconies -- stupid is as stupid does

The insurance to which I refer would be in case the complicated system you have "engineered" fails to operate, permitting the nutjob to do violence. If they install that system they are representing that it will prevent such violence. Counter my actual points, not what you imagine or misunderstand them to be.

We will see, but I expect Mandalay Bay will be sued by Paddock's victims. Lawyers generally include anyone at all involved who has deep pockets. Their insurance company will likely settle, deeming the cost of that to be less than the cost of a prolonged defense that might not succeed (and if it failed, this would add the costs of the payout, any appeals, etc.) All plaintiffs' attorneys have to do is find some tiny little shred of a thing the hotel did not do right. A delay in calling for law enforcement help. A suspicious employee whose concerns were dismissed by his boss. A system that delayed reporting something. Those lawyers are very skilled at finding little toeholds like that.

You can argue that this system is broken, and maybe it is. You can't argue that it doesn't work like that unless you haven't been paying attention to our litigious society.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Evil Yoda said:

Middle, don't forget the insurance the hotel has to carry in case the system fails and a shooter succeeds in committing murder. That won't be cheap, either.

When Maryland was considering linking its criminal and gun registration databases the services administration estimated $1M/year for seven troopers. I'd bet that security force would cost $2M/year or more.

It could possibly be made unobtrusive if designed into the building from the outset. A retrofit would make the facade of the hotel look like a skid row pawnshop. I wouldn't want to stay there. Forty pounds per window is probably optimistic. I would bet that the motors, frames, electrical and steel shutters would weigh much more unless the window was very small.

It would be far less expensive to simply remove the windows. And just as practical.

I know.  I'm not sure why I keep responding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, Evil Yoda said:

The insurance to which I refer would be in case the complicated system you have "engineered" fails to operate, permitting the nutjob to do violence. If they install that system they are representing that it will prevent such violence. Counter my actual points, not what you imagine or misunderstand them to be.

We will see, but I expect Mandalay Bay will be sued by Paddock's victims. Lawyers generally include anyone at all involved who has deep pockets. Their insurance company will likely settle, deeming the cost of that to be less than the cost of a prolonged defense that might not succeed (and if it failed, this would add the costs of the payout, any appeals, etc.) All plaintiffs' attorneys have to do is find some tiny little shred of a thing the hotel did not do right. A delay in calling for law enforcement help. A suspicious employee whose concerns were dismissed by his boss. A system that delayed reporting something. Those lawyers are very skilled at finding little toeholds like that.

You can argue that this system is broken, and maybe it is. You can't argue that it doesn't work like that unless you haven't been paying attention to our litigious society.

All they would have to advertise is that the system allows for quicker location and response than the Vegas Massacre -- 72 minutes is a pretty low bar to cross.

No complicated at all -- houses all over Florida and the Caribbean have automated sliding hurricane shutter installed -- and have for years.

Glass break sensors are ubiquitous in homes across the country -- call ADT I'm sure they will try and sell you one for each window. 

CCD cameras are used by amateur astronomers to track softball sized objects in orbit - for decades. CCD cameras can be built to look in certain spectra -- like those a muzzle flash is in, even a $50 chip and 3 cameras will triangulate and report in less than 5 seconds.

Completely untrue -- the hotel has no duty to protect a person that a nutjob is shooting at.  They have no duty to prevent a nutjob from doing violence.

Even on the casino floor the hotel has no DUTY to apprehend a shooter -- they probably will, but legally they don't have the duty.

They only have a duty to the safety of their guests on hotel grounds, by acting in a non-negligent manner.

The fact that they have installed systems that allow them to execute actions on a guest is completely separate from the issue you raise.

It is the same as a case of normal buildings installing shatterproof glass. In the instance of a bad actor taking a sledgehammer to the window and then throwing objects onto bystanders below -- the hotel is not liable.

And the Mandalay Bay won't pay a thing -- other than the free rooms they offered. They have no culpability whatsoever for his actions.

Edited by karlydee2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hell I'm already paying Extra with the Resort Fees for stuff I never use except maybe the Wi-Fi if I take my Laptop with me. Yeah, jack the prices up even More! I'll start staying Off-Strip at one of the cheaper Station casinos. I always get a rental car anyway so it makes no difference to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, karlydee2 said:

I just proved it would be a $10 a night surcharge for a year on rooms that go for hundreds

You supplied the steel, not the labor, not the computer systems to run it. Not the sensors, not the annual maintenance contracts for the software, not the servers to run the software or the extra bandwidth to run it as a cloud application, not the lost business during installation, etc, etc. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

5 minutes ago, Rael said:

You supplied the steel, not the labor, not the computer systems to run it. Not the sensors, not the annual maintenance contracts for the software, not the servers to run the software or the extra bandwidth to run it as a cloud application, not the lost business during installation, etc, etc. 

That's why I doubled it to 12 million, and you can run the entire system on a raspberry pi

Lost business? -- no more obtrusive than the window washers. 

Glass break can be installed using the existing wireless network in less than 5 minutes a room.

The entire monitoring bandwidth would be less than 1 kid playing COD Black Ops.

Edited by karlydee2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, karlydee2 said:

That's why I doubled it to 12 million, and you can run the entire system on a raspberry pi

I really doubt you are putting in a 12m system and then decide to run it on a system meant to teach programming. You would, for legal and business reasons, want a real system that includes a neck to get your hands around in a crisis. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, Rael said:

I really doubt you are putting in a 12m system and then decide to run it on a system meant to teach programming. You would, for legal and business reasons, want a real system that includes a neck to get your hands around in a crisis. 

Ok a single PC could run it.

The system would have to nominally monitor 3000 bytes/sec -- thats nothing -- zeros = good status ; 1 = glass break, 1 byte tells you which floor up to 255, 1 byte tells you the room up to 255 --- for glass break

Not much more for the 10 or so CCD cameras that simply provide a zero packet byte for nominal then a 1 and then a series of bytes with the +/- AZ/EL of the flashes -- all told maybe 32 bytes times 10 cameras for the PC to verify flashes with glass break.

It's less than streaming pandora in bandwidth.

The same byte value of 1 gets sent to the actuator receiver to close the cover (it could even be sent over the power line connected to the controller like in home)

Or to the mux - with the floor byte and the room byte

 

SImple -- heck a cell phone could run an app to do it -- considering a cell phone can control a drone wjhile receiving real-time video from the camera mounted on the drone.

 

Edited by karlydee2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0