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Sprightly

Why Are So Many Fascist Monuments Still Standing in Italy?

308 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, Smokey 1 said:

So how is leaving the country treason?  Do you consider people who leave this country and become citizens of another country traitors?

No and comparing someone going to another country and becoming their citizen versus a state of millions deciding they are suddenly a new country is ridiculous.

Now if they want to pay back all the federal money they've ever received, maybe.

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5 hours ago, Sprightly said:

It wasn't fought to end it out of any concerns for the horrific crime (in my opinion) of slavery.  One day the myth that it about caring about slaves will die.

 "I have no purpose, directly or indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the States where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so." 

Exactly correct although there are still people who do not understand that the civil war was about the establish and maintenance of political power of the North vs the South.

The retention or elimination of slavery was, for most of the war, a secondary consideration.

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20 minutes ago, soulflower said:

You’re comparing “Lost Cause” propaganda to the ruins of Roman Civilization? :rolleyes:

Hilarious ain't it?

25 minutes ago, jdsample said:

 Speaking of fascists in Rome, the ancient Roman emperors were no choir boys and brutalized numerous peoples doing heinous things like feeding them to lions and nailing them to crosses.  I am glad that a couple hundred years after the last emperor a bunch of politically correct Italians didn't decide to erase all traces of the empire.  

 

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5 hours ago, ivanbalt said:

That's all great.  But the union did not fight against the United States to keep slavery legal.  There's no way around that.

You keep chanting "the union did not fight against the United States to keep slavery legal.".

Fact is the union was the United States and it did not fight itself for any reason making one wonder what point your trying to make by continually regurgitating the obvious.

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3 minutes ago, ivanbalt said:

No and comparing someone going to another country and becoming their citizen versus a state of millions deciding they are suddenly a new country is ridiculous.

Now if they want to pay back all the federal money they've ever received, maybe.

Why do they continue to compare Apples and Oranges? I guess that's the only way they can attempt to support their position.

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5 hours ago, Calamari said:

Another good point, Franco was actually a part of their history, and didn't try to secede from Spain.

And Hitler was actually a part of Germany's history and did not try to secede from Germany.

And Stalin was actually a part of the USSR's history and did not try to secede from the USSR.

And Mao was actually a part of China's history and did not try to secede from China.

And the list goes on.

What, if any, is your point?

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5 hours ago, EgyptKang said:

Were the fascists traitors to Italy?

It is always interesting when supporters of slavery and traitors to this country try to make correlations between American history and that of another country.

Yes, they were.

And the reason they were is explained by a quote from Judgement At Nuremberg...

"A country isn't a rock. And it isn't an extension of one's self. *It's what it stands for, when standing for something is the most difficult!* Before the people of the world - let it now be noted in our decision here that this is what *we* stand for: *justice, truth... and the value of a single human being!"

A country is what it stand for and in that respect fascists have always betrayed the countries in which they have gained power.

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9 minutes ago, VOSA said:

You keep chanting "the union did not fight against the United States to keep slavery legal.".

Fact is the union was the United States and it did not fight itself for any reason making one wonder what point your trying to make by continually regurgitating the obvious.

Thanks, I am aware of what the union was.  Some seem to be saying that the union was just as bad as the confederacy.  Just pointing out only one side fought against the US.

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5 hours ago, Cameron said:

None of those union monuments honor traitors.

But we do have monuments that honor traitors.

At least that's what a British friend of mine tells me.

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1 minute ago, VOSA said:

But we do have monuments that honor traitors.

At least that's what a British friend of mine tells me.

I wonder if the British would have built statues for Washington and others if they won?  My guess is no.

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5 hours ago, Cameron said:

I was struck by "overly sensitive," too

We have tip-toed around and placated the feelings of these vile and murderous losers to the extent that they have re-written the history of the Civil War

Enough

 

All of the "vile and murderous losers" are dead and therefore have no feelings.

Stop being so dramatic.

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2 hours ago, soulflower said:

Battlefield parks are like Museums and I don’t think civil war monuments should be removed from there

But the monuments honoring people like Robert E. Lee in public spaces should go if citizens want them to go

Then why not put the question to a vote and let the people decide instead of having the decision made by some spineless pols who jump every time some minority gets offended and starts squealing. 

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7 minutes ago, VOSA said:

All of the "vile and murderous losers" are dead and therefore have no feelings.

Stop being so dramatic.

Its funny how some of these people who like to  claim Lincoln invaded the south to free the slaves, that the union army had better officers and that the south didn't lose because of a lack of resources and men also claim that people who disagree with these claims are trying to revise history.  :D 

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1 hour ago, hst2 said:

That is not what I said..

Actually you didn't say anything on that subject.

So here's your chance to be a stand-up guy - Yes or No, are slave descendant being hurt by a Confederate statue?  

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59 minutes ago, ivanbalt said:

To be honest, this country's whole existence is about maintaining a class system.

As is the existence of every other country on this planet.

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1 hour ago, soulflower said:

You’re comparing “Lost Cause” propaganda to the ruins of Roman Civilization? :rolleyes:

Now you are adopting HST's language?  LOL.  Don't be a lost cause like him.

History always has brutal chapters full of atrocities.  You think "Roman Civilization", a brutal empire hellbent on conquering the world and subjugating everyone was any different?  I just told you they fed people to lions and nailed the people that got uppity to wooden crosses.  They slaughtered masses of people.  Yes, they accomplished a lot of engineering feats.  So did Hitler.  Somehow, people across Europe were able to live with monuments to brutal dictators.  They didn't get their panties in a wad over monuments to the fallen brutal dictators, because they were dealing with a whole new set of brutal dictators.  

We like to pretend in the US, that our history is unique in its brutality and sinfulness.  It isn't.  The Mongolians, Chinese, Persians, Romans, Russians, English, and many other people make American history look rather bland in its brutality.  

So I don't know why we are unique as a people in wanting to erase our own history to the detriment of future generations.  

 

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1 hour ago, VOSA said:

Exactly correct although there are still people who do not understand that the civil war was about the establish and maintenance of political power of the North vs the South.

The retention or elimination of slavery was, for most of the war, a secondary consideration.

This fellow didn't think so.

Quote

One section of our country believes slavery is right and ought to be extended, while the other believes it is wrong and ought not to be extended. This is the only substantial dispute. 

 

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50 minutes ago, VOSA said:

Then why not put the question to a vote and let the people decide instead of having the decision made by some spineless pols who jump every time some minority gets offended and starts squealing. 

Sorry, buddy. We live in a republic. If the white people want to keep the statues, they need to elect leaders who will do it. Sucks to be white, in this case. Sometimes they just don't get everything they want. It just doesn't seem fair. :mad:

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15 minutes ago, jdsample said:

Now you are adopting HST's language?  LOL.  Don't be a lost cause like him.

History always has brutal chapters full of atrocities.  You think "Roman Civilization", a brutal empire hellbent on conquering the world and subjugating everyone was any different?  I just told you they fed people to lions and nailed the people that got uppity to wooden crosses.  They slaughtered masses of people.  Yes, they accomplished a lot of engineering feats.  So did Hitler.  Somehow, people across Europe were able to live with monuments to brutal dictators.  They didn't get their panties in a wad over monuments to the fallen brutal dictators, because they were dealing with a whole new set of brutal dictators.  

We like to pretend in the US, that our history is unique in its brutality and sinfulness.  It isn't.  The Mongolians, Chinese, Persians, Romans, Russians, English, and many other people make American history look rather bland in its brutality.  

So I don't know why we are unique as a people in wanting to erase our own history to the detriment of future generations.  

 

A lot of Hitler statues in Europe, are there?

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57 minutes ago, Smokey 1 said:

Its funny how some of these people who like to  claim Lincoln invaded the south to free the slaves, that the union army had better officers and that the south didn't lose because of a lack of resources and men also claim that people who disagree with these claims are trying to revise history.  :D 

 

1 hour ago, VOSA said:

Exactly correct although there are still people who do not understand that the civil war was about the establish and maintenance of political power of the North vs the South.

The retention or elimination of slavery was, for most of the war, a secondary consideration.

Too easy.

 

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2 hours ago, EgyptKang said:

The reason you bring up this thread is because of the ongoing situation with the statues of the traitorous Confederates. Those traitorous Cons supported slavery.  You are in effect saying if they still have statues of Fascists up then it shouldn't be a problem for the USA to have statues of the traitorous Confederates.

So when did Francis Scott Key become a confederate ..???

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2 hours ago, soulflower said:

Another Civil War debate

Way to go Sprightly :P

lol You're welcome!

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These North/South discussions are becoming excruciatingly boring. Same posters, same words over and over and over again. :rolleyes:

Clue: there are no new arguments to be had regarding the Civil War. 

 

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, EgyptKang said:

The reason you bring up this thread is because of the ongoing situation with the statues of the traitorous Confederates. Those traitorous Cons supported slavery.  You are in effect saying if they still have statues of Fascists up then it shouldn't be a problem for the USA to have statues of the traitorous Confederates.

Is that what I said? Interesting. 

Edited by Sprightly

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51 minutes ago, hst2 said:

That fellow was a politician and like all politicians he flip-flopped on issues depending on which way the wind was blowing.

 

As to the extension of slavery; dig a little deeper there, Herodotus.

 

Why did the South believe slavery ought to be extended?

 

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