Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Sprightly

Why Are So Many Fascist Monuments Still Standing in Italy?

308 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Smokey 1 said:

What do you think would have happened if the southern states didn't secede?  Would there still have been a war?

Yes, it would have been inevitable, unless they voluntarily freed the Slaves.

 

It probably would have been in the 1870's - 1880's after the Northern States had so far out stripped the South in infrastructure and resources it would have been a beat down of epic proportions.

Not to mention -- since by that time slavery had been outlawed in EVERY OTHER MAJOR NATION -- the North would have had no lack of foreign resource support

 

British or French would have blockaded every single Southern Port -- and or helped outflank the South by delivering tens of thousands of Union Soldiers to the (at the time Uninhabited) Gulf Coast -- at the same time providing a steady supply line 

Honestly the war would have probably been Won in a year or 2 in that type of Scenario

As the Abolitionist Movement Grew -- there would have been an extreme likelihood that Dozens or hundreds of Nat Turners would have executed insurrection at the same time Federal Troops Invaded.

That has always been a big pointer to me regarding the bigotry that existed in the Union Generals.

Nat Turner should have been a model for the North 

If your back yard is on fire -- it's hard to fight one down the street

It's not beyond the pale to believe that wealthy abolitionists would have gone to the South and purchased Slaves and then armed them -- to act as a Fifth Column

Edited by karlydee2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, hst2 said:

One had already flared in Kansas.

Was that US troops against a state?   No.

Do you think there would have been a war where US troops attacked slave states?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, karlydee2 said:

Yes, it would have been inevitable, unless they voluntarily freed the Slaves.

 

It probably would have been in the 1870's - 1880's after the Northern States had so far out stripped the South in infrastructure and resources it would have been a beat down of epic proportions.

Not to mention -- since by that time slavery had been outlawed in EVERY OTHER MAJOR NATION -- the North would have had no lack of foreign resource support

 

British or French would have blockaded every single Southern Port -- and or helped outflank the South by delivering tens of thousands of Union Soldiers to the (at the time Uninhabited) Gulf Coast -- at the same time providing a steady supply line 

Honestly the war would have probably been Won in a year or 2 in that type of Scenario

As the Abolitionist Movement Grew -- there would have been an extreme likelihood that Dozens or hundreds of Nat Turners would have executed insurrection at the same time Federal Troops Invaded.

That has always been a big pointer to me regarding the bigotry that existed in the Union Generals.

Nat Turner should have been a model for the North 

If your back yard is on fire -- it's hard to fight one down the street

It's not beyond the pale to believe that wealthy abolitionists would have gone to the South and purchased Slaves and then armed them -- to act as a Fifth Column

How could US troops legally go to war against southern states especially when slavery was still legal?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Smokey 1 said:

Was that US troops against a state?   No.

Do you think there would have been a war where US troops attacked slave states?

A prelude to an inevitable war. 

Do I think the United States would basically invade it's own country? Probably not. Would the state have used federal troops to oppose slave state settlers and protect free staters in the West? Seems likely.

But it's all idle speculation. The southern states left the union to protect slavery. It was the only option they had.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I don't really care what statues the Italians have. That's their business, really.

What bothers me is the number of people who want to preserve statues that:

  1. Honor traitors
  2. Honor losers
  3. Honor a government that formed and fought to protect its citizens' right to own people.
  4. In many cases, were erected decades after the events they commemorate as a reaction to the civil rights movement.
Edited by Evil Yoda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, hst2 said:

The southern states left the Union to protect slavery. Lincoln went to war to bring them back, which would mean the eventual end of slavery due to westward expansion. Lincoln did not want to highlight the fact that the war was about slavery because that would alarm the border statex and the nation couldn't afford to lose them. Once the Union had a victory under its belt, he issued the Emancipation Proclamation which focused on ending slavery now. This affirme the direct link to the war and slavery.

OK, so you can't handle an either/or question.

Let's see if you can deal with a simple Yes/No question:

Was the CW about slavery from the beginning? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

13 minutes ago, Evil Yoda said:

I don't really care what statues the Italians have. That's their business, really.

What bothers me is the number of people who want to preserve statues that:

  1. Honor traitors
  2. Honor losers
  3. Honor a government that formed and fought to protect its citizens' right to own people.
  4. In many cases, were erected decades after the events they commemorate as a reaction to the civil rights movement.

Your first problem is that it isn't really any of your business who or what other people want to honor.  

Edited by Smokey 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Smokey 1 said:

Your first problem is that it isn't really any of your business who or what other people want to honor.  

I didn't say it was my business. Read carefully. I said it bothers me that we have people who want to honor such a collection of basically vile people. Lee was a military expect, but he was a terrible human being, for example.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, hst2 said:

God, they're like ISIS!

Boom!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Smokey 1 said:

How could US troops legally go to war against southern states especially when slavery was still legal?  

By the 1880's The number of Free States due to the Missouri Compromise was almost 2-1 vs Slave states -- Slavery Would have been outlawed by Statute

Edited by karlydee2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Sprightly said:

The thread can easily end for you if you just choose to ignore it.  :) 

Nahh!!! I enjoy proving you wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Evil Yoda said:

I didn't say it was my business. Read carefully. I said it bothers me that we have people who want to honor such a collection of basically vile people. Lee was a military expect, but he was a terrible human being, for example.

No you said it bothers you that some people honor Confederates.  Who they honor is their business, not yours. 

 

 

Edited by Smokey 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, karlydee2 said:

By the 1880's The number of Free States due to the Missouri Compromise was almost 2-1 vs Slave states -- Slavery Would have been outlawed by Statute

If slavery was made illegal in all of the states in the 1880s I doubt the states would have seceded in an effort to keep them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Smokey 1 said:

No you said it bothers you that some people honor Confederates.  Who they honor is their business, not yours. 

It is their business who they honor. But it can also bother me, because the people they honor are not worthy of it. The economic system of the south at that time depended on slavery at a time when men were finally realizing how deeply wrong it was. To survive they had to create a vile state, run by vile men, based on the notion that slavery was okay. Or that some men were unworthy of better lives.

Fast foward about a hundred years and folks are finally starting to realize the need for civil rights legislation. Suddenly it's in vogue to honor the Confederate military men and statues begin appearing. One does not have to think too hard to realize why. Those statues celebrate terrible men who did a terrible thing to their country - traitors and racists. People who honor such men should bother any decent human being.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

58 minutes ago, Evil Yoda said:

It is their business who they honor. But it can also bother me, because the people they honor are not worthy of it. The economic system of the south at that time depended on slavery at a time when men were finally realizing how deeply wrong it was. To survive they had to create a vile state, run by vile men, based on the notion that slavery was okay. Or that some men were unworthy of better lives.

Fast foward about a hundred years and folks are finally starting to realize the need for civil rights legislation. Suddenly it's in vogue to honor the Confederate military men and statues begin appearing. One does not have to think too hard to realize why. Those statues celebrate terrible men who did a terrible thing to their country - traitors and racists. People who honor such men should bother any decent human being.

And all of that is your opinion that doesn't make you any more righteous than they are.  Don't you think there might be another way of seeing things or are you so arrogant that you think only you are right? 

It wasn't suddenly in vogue to honor Confederate ancestors, the SCV has been around since 1896 and the UDC was founded in 1894.  They are the two main heritage groups that are mostly responsible for the statues and memorials which were mostly built in the early 1900's and not during the civil rights era.  You are buying into propaganda if you believe the memorials were built to intimidate blacks. 

What terrible thing did they do to the US?  They left, so how was doing that a terrible thing to the US?  The terrible thing was that the north wouldn't let them leave and started a war to get them back. They were not traitors by definition and most white people were racist to some degree in that time period even in the north. 

Some of my ancestors fought for the south and I am proud of what they did and why they did it (and it wasn't to preserve slavery) so I guess that means that in your mind I am not a decent human being and I bother you.  All I can say is that is just too freaking bad.

Edited by Smokey 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, EgyptKang said:

Nahh!!! I enjoy proving you wrong.

Yet, you haven't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why Are So Many Fascist Monuments Still Standing in Italy?

You got a problem with that? ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see that even amid ongoing controversy, Baltimore's Little Italy is holding its Columbus Day parade today.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Sprightly said:

I see that even amid ongoing controversy, Baltimore's Little Italy is holding its Columbus Day parade today.

When do the protests begin ...???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

13 hours ago, VOSA said:

OK, so you can't handle an either/or question.

Let's see if you can deal with a simple Yes/No question:

Was the CW about slavery from the beginning? 

I have answered your qustion. Sorry the complexity befuddled you.

I gather you find no percentage in defending your own point and are reduced to going after mine.

Edited by hst2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Smokey 1 said:

Your first problem is that it isn't really any of your business who or what other people want to honor.  

Tell that to the Nazis and Klan that went to Charlottesville to protest the removal of the Confederate statues.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
46 minutes ago, Sprightly said:

I see that even amid ongoing controversy, Baltimore's Little Italy is holding its Columbus Day parade today.

Boy, talk about the upholding of myths.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, hst2 said:

Boy, talk about the upholding of myths.

Sure. There are a lot of variations of "myths" that people celebrate. Christmas, Easter, etc. come to mind.

Yet, it's not against the law to believe what people believe and for them to celebrate what they choose to celebrate. And, fortunately, it's not against the law to honor whomever we choose. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Sprightly said:

Sure. There are a lot of variations of "myths" that people celebrate. Christmas, Easter, etc. come to mind.

Yet, it's not against the law to believe what people believe and for them to celebrate what they choose to celebrate. And, fortunately, it's not against the law to honor whomever we choose. :)

We are certainly free to believe myths in denial of ugly truths, but I don't recommend ignorance. However, they do DP say it's bliss, so the attraction us understsndable.

After the Holocaust, I.F. Stone visited Germany, and he asked Germans what happened to rhe Jews that lived there, and many of them said that they left, they went somewhere else.

What's the harm, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

13 hours ago, Smokey 1 said:

If slavery was made illegal in all of the states in the 1880s I doubt the states would have seceded in an effort to keep them.

I respectfully disagree.

The slave based agrarian economy in the South (which showed no signs of changing) would have been even more impacted by Emancipation, with 20 years of more babies (free and slave)

Millions of now free Blacks would have needed PAYING JOBS -- economic catastrophe on a larger scale than Reconstruction.

Another possibility is the creation of a Black Nation in one of the Territories. By the mid 1880's the BLACK population in the Slave states in the US would have been close to 7 Million (it was 5 Million in 1870) -- Which would have been almost equal to the White population in the Slave States.

 

Edited by karlydee2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0