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Sprightly

Why Are So Many Fascist Monuments Still Standing in Italy?

308 posts in this topic

2 minutes ago, hst2 said:

We are certainly free to believe myths in denial of ugly truths, but I don't recommend ignorance. However, they do DP say it's bliss, so the attraction us understsndable.

After the Holocaust, I.F. Stone visited Germany, and he asked Germans what happened to rhe Jews that lived there, and many of them said that they left, they went somewhere else.

What's the harm, right?

That's right. What's the harm in these Italian Americans celebrating the man?

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, hst2 said:

Tell that to the Nazis and Klan that went to Charlottesville to protest the removal of the Confederate statues.

 

That doesn't even make sense in the context of the post.    

Edited by Smokey 1

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1 hour ago, Sprightly said:

That's right. What's the harm in these Italian Americans celebrating the man?

Indeed. Unpleasant facts can ruin one's day.

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35 minutes ago, Smokey 1 said:

That doesn't even make sense in the context of the post.    

Why not?

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Posted (edited)

13 hours ago, Smokey 1 said:

You are buying into propaganda if you believe the memorials were built to intimidate blacks. 

What terrible thing did they do to the US?  They left, so how was doing that a terrible thing to the US?  The terrible thing was that the north wouldn't let them leave and started a war to get them back. They were not traitors by definition and most white people were racist to some degree in that time period even in the north. 

Some of my ancestors fought for the south and I am proud of what they did and why they did it (and it wasn't to preserve slavery) so I guess that means that in your mind I am not a decent human being and I bother you.  All I can say is that is just too freaking bad.

Not so much to intimidate blacks as to demonstrate disdain for them.

They betrayed the country. They were traitors. And they did it to preserve their right to own other human beings. You don't get much viler than that unless you're a serial killer or something. The idea that the south "left" because of "state's rights" is a, pardon the expression, whitewash. The states' right that mattered to them is the one I already mentioned.

It is your ancestors whom I regard as vile men, for defending that. You just disappoint me. I'm sure that doesn't matter to you, and there's no particular reason why it should. But when you defend the indefensible and honor the dishonorable, you will disappoint more than me - if you are honest.

Edited by Evil Yoda

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1 hour ago, Evil Yoda said:

Not so much to intimidate blacks as to demonstrate disdain for them.

They betrayed the country. They were traitors. And they did it to preserve their right to own other human beings. You don't get much viler than that unless you're a serial killer or something. The idea that the south "left" because of "state's rights" is a, pardon the expression, whitewash. The states' right that mattered to them is the one I already mentioned.

It is your ancestors whom I regard as vile men, for defending that. You just disappoint me. I'm sure that doesn't matter to you, and there's no particular reason why it should. But when you defend the indefensible and honor the dishonorable, you will disappoint more than me - if you are honest.

They didn't betray the US they left it which they had the right to do.  It wasn't as simple as you claim.  One ancestor of mine wrote a journal and in it he explained that he joined the ANV because of what Lincoln was doing in MD, suspending rights, arresting people for no good reason, confiscating livestock and whole farms and putting the state under martial law illegally.  Does that make him a vile person?  I don't believe so and I will always be proud of him and the courage it took to do what did.  

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1 hour ago, hst2 said:

Why not?

They weren't protesting who other people were honoring.

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28 minutes ago, Smokey 1 said:

They didn't betray the US they left it which they had the right to do.

So they could own other people. That is what makes them vile.

Scholars debate whether they had the right to leave or not. It's not a subject I'm familiar with. But, again, the reason they wanted to leave is why I held them in disdain.

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Posted (edited)

33 minutes ago, Smokey 1 said:

They didn't betray the US they left it which they had the right to do.  

Not without Congress Permission.

 

Same as the Virginias being separated.

Edited by karlydee2

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Posted (edited)

37 minutes ago, Smokey 1 said:

They didn't betray the US they left it which they had the right to do.  It wasn't as simple as you claim.  One ancestor of mine wrote a journal and in it he explained that he joined the ANV because of what Lincoln was doing in MD, suspending rights, arresting people for no good reason, confiscating livestock and whole farms and putting the state under martial law illegally.  Does that make him a vile person?  I don't believe so and I will always be proud of him and the courage it took to do what did.  

The Secessionist States and any sympathizers are vile despicable people who violated a basic human right -- freedom.

Sorry, but if your ancestors supported secession, they were vile human beings -- the cornerstone and foundation of secession was the continued RIGHT enshrined in LAW to deprive BLACK citizens of their freedom by allowing legal SLAVERY.

Edited by karlydee2

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Posted (edited)

15 hours ago, Smokey 1 said:

And all of that is your opinion that doesn't make you any more righteous than they are.  Don't you think there might be another way of seeing things or are you so arrogant that you think only you are right? 

It wasn't suddenly in vogue to honor Confederate ancestors, the SCV has been around since 1896 and the UDC was founded in 1894.  They are the two main heritage groups that are mostly responsible for the statues and memorials which were mostly built in the early 1900's and not during the civil rights era.  You are buying into propaganda if you believe the memorials were built to intimidate blacks. 

What terrible thing did they do to the US?  They left, so how was doing that a terrible thing to the US?  The terrible thing was that the north wouldn't let them leave and started a war to get them back. They were not traitors by definition and most white people were racist to some degree in that time period even in the north. 

Some of my ancestors fought for the south and I am proud of what they did and why they did it (and it wasn't to preserve slavery) so I guess that means that in your mind I am not a decent human being and I bother you.  All I can say is that is just too freaking bad.

They weakened us by splitting the country.

You feeling that it was ok to be racist because as you put it most white people were racist is a little disturbing. 

No you don't bother us. You are a non entity by yourself.

Edited by EgyptKang

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17 minutes ago, karlydee2 said:

The Secessionist States and any sympathizers are vile despicable people who violated a basic human right -- freedom.

Sorry, but if your ancestors supported secession, they were vile human beings -- the cornerstone and foundation of secession was the continued RIGHT enshrined in LAW to deprive BLACK citizens of their freedom by allowing legal SLAVERY.

Now many of the descendants of those slaves are vile human beings that deprive many WHITE citizens their freedom to walk down the street without being robbed, shot, raped or murdered. 

 

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5 hours ago, hst2 said:

I have answered your qustion. Sorry the complexity befuddled you.

I gather you find no percentage in defending your own point and are reduced to going after mine.

You haven't answered my simple Yes/No question because you know if you did you'd expose your self-contradiction about what the CW was about and when it became about that.

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47 minutes ago, PinkFlamingo said:

Now many of the descendants of those slaves are vile human beings that deprive many WHITE citizens their freedom to walk down the street without being robbed, shot, raped or murdered. 

 

That isn't enshrined in law -- and you are a bigot for even trying to conflate the two

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49 minutes ago, PinkFlamingo said:

Now many of the descendants of those slaves are vile human beings that deprive many WHITE citizens their freedom to walk down the street without being robbed, shot, raped or murdered. 

 

82.4% of whites murdered were murdered by other whites

90% of Blacks murdered were murdered by other blacks

 

https://qz.com/556988/here-are-four-charts-on-race-and-murder-in-america-to-tweet-back-at-donald-trump/

 

Your argument is false - window dressing and BS

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Posted (edited)

54 minutes ago, PinkFlamingo said:

Now many of the descendants of those slaves are vile human beings that deprive many WHITE citizens their freedom to walk down the street without being robbed, shot, raped or murdered. 

 

77% of all White gun deaths are suicide  -- weak minded fools

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/social-mobility-memos/2015/12/15/guns-and-race-the-different-worlds-of-black-and-white-americans/

Edited by karlydee2

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24 minutes ago, VOSA said:

You haven't answered my simple Yes/No question because you know if you did you'd expose your self-contradiction about what the CW was about and when it became about that.

Awesome, our thing. I have explained to you how slavery was involved in every aspect of the war, and shown that your statement that it wasn't is absurd.

I am truly sorry that it isn't working out for you, put hooefully, you have learned somthing.

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Just now, karlydee2 said:

77% of all White gun deaths are suicide  -- weak minded fools

BiNGO!!! Some people don't like to hear those facts.

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Just now, hst2 said:

It's a bigoted statement, plain and simple.

I called him/her out

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Just now, karlydee2 said:

I called him/her out

Indeed.

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4 minutes ago, EgyptKang said:

BiNGO!!! Some people don't like to hear those facts.

Just like the bizarre non-shooting.

 

Like I posted on the other thread -- his skin color wasn't brown enough to warrant shooting

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Posted (edited)

27 minutes ago, karlydee2 said:

That isn't enshrined in law -- and you are a bigot for even trying to conflate the two

Bla bla bla....

Don't give me your bs statistics. don't feel safe walking in the city in which I grew up because of your slave descendants. 

Karlydee, you're one of the worst bigots on this forum. 

Edited by PinkFlamingo

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2 hours ago, Smokey 1 said:

They didn't betray the US they left it which they had the right to do.  It wasn't as simple as you claim.  One ancestor of mine wrote a journal and in it he explained that he joined the ANV because of what Lincoln was doing in MD, suspending rights, arresting people for no good reason, confiscating livestock and whole farms and putting the state under martial law illegally.  Does that make him a vile person?  I don't believe so and I will always be proud of him and the courage it took to do what did.  

I'm sure your ancestor was a fine man. But as has been discussed ad nauseum, the root cause of the war was the south defending slavery. Not exactly on the side of the angels.

It's hard for me to understand how you don't see how some, especially descendants of slaves, see monuments to the CSA as an affront.

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