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mcorioles

Puerto Rico Was a Disaster BEFORE the Hurricane

195 posts in this topic

46 minutes ago, Rael said:

That is a very rational, well thought out post Papi. However, it isn't like this thread was started as a bash Trump thread. It was started, well, to be honest I'm not sure why, but it seems its purpose was to praise the dear leader and to absolve him from any mis-steps based on the idea that Puerto Rico wasn't a fiscally pristine place to begin with. I don't believe their financial situation absolves the president from doing the right thing, nor excuse his (admittedly not limited to this event) stupid statements and postures. I would imagine we share a fair amount of common ground there. 

Maggie pointed it out perfectly that this is not about a declining infrastructure. This is about a crisis and how this crisis is handled. People's lives are at stake here and what other presidents have done is irrelevant. The hurricane happened under Trump's watch. It's not like anyone planned for it to rip PR to shreds, but it did. The humanitarian thing to do is to exhaustively help any way possible and to provide care for those suffering. That's what previous presidents would have done.

And I get no joy at bashing Trump. In fact, I am quite sad and embarrassed at what our great nation has become.

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Here's a idea.

Im willing to wipe the slate clean and start over.

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1 hour ago, mcorioles said:

Here's a idea.

Im willing to wipe the slate clean and start over.

Yeah, having got the mods to wipe out all the posts that embarrassed you.

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1 hour ago, WKDWZD said:

Yeah, having got the mods to wipe out all the posts that embarrassed you.

I didn't wipe anything?

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Why don't you ask them instead of guessing?

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The Trump administration ignored the impeding hurricane, completely botched the response, and is now trying to avoid talking about the unfolding humanitarian crisis there.

A horrible way to treat our own citizens.

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Steele and Unger pointed out on their show this evening that FEMA was in Maryland for three years after Isabelle and that wasn't even close to the tragedy that Maria was for PR. 

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3 hours ago, WKDWZD said:

Yeah, having got the mods to wipe out all the posts that embarrassed you.

I think if he apologized to the forum for his behavior, this may be a start.

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4 hours ago, ms maggie said:

Think this is a straight up example of false equivalency. So neither Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama did enough to turn PR around.  Ok.  But this is a humanitarian crisis, where not doing enough can have, and has had, deadly consequences. There is no excuse for most of the island not to have clean drinking water after 3 weeks.  Clean drinking water is literally a prerequisite for life and if FEMA and the military can't figure that out after 3 weeks then they need to be held accountable. 

I don't pin all the blame on Trump.  Frankly I think he is so inept that it really doesn't occur to me that he could step in and provide real leadership.  It would be nice if he kept the hell out of it, no nonsensical tweets, no threats.  Don't think that's asking too much, do you?

I agree that we would all be better off if Trump would just keep his mouth shut and cease the tweets. But I was not seeking to suggest any kind of equivalency, false or real. I was just pointing out facts that tend to get lost in the shuffle in attempts to either bash or defend Trump (or perhaps former presidents) by various posters.

This very clearly a humanitarian crisis, but unfortunately the coverage of it (which is all mixed together with opinions by various parties) has become so politicized that it is hard to know exactly what to believe. One report says that there are 19,000 federal government people (presumably civilian and military in some combination) on the ground there to help. Is that correct? Is it enough? Are they doing the right things? I don't know. Do you?

Aren't support operations still in motion in other areas due to Irma and Harvey? Those stories have all but faded away, but all of that damage has not been fixed already. Have we done enough there in those humanitarian crises?  I don't know. Do you?

NBC says 3500 homes and businesses have been burnt to the ground in California over the last few days. We have federal resouces being tasked there as well to try to fight the fires and protect lives. Has any of that been enough? I don't know. Do you? 

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31 minutes ago, ODENTON said:

I think if he apologized to the forum for his behavior, this may be a start.

LOL,ok.

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1 hour ago, JoyinMudville said:

The Trump administration ignored the impeding hurricane, completely botched the response, and is now trying to avoid talking about the unfolding humanitarian crisis there.

A horrible way to treat our own citizens.

No one ignored the impending hurricane. To suggest that they did is absurd. The fact that PR is an island made it more vunerable than a coastal area in the mainland US in terms of how damaged areas can be quickly accessed after the storm moves out. Power companies from other states were able to drive to Florida to help restore power after Irma. That kind of support (and equipment) needs to be brought in by plane or boat to PR. The question of whether other types of supplies are being airlifted in as well as possible is certainly debatable, but "completely botched" seems like a ( perhaps partisan?) overstatement. 

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6 minutes ago, Papi said:

No one ignored the impending hurricane. To suggest that they did is absurd. The fact that PR is an island made it more vunerable than a coastal area in the mainland US in terms of how damaged areas can be quickly accessed after the storm moves out. Power companies from other states were able to drive to Florida to help restore power after Irma. That kind of support (and equipment) needs to be brought in by plane or boat to PR. The question of whether other types of supplies are being airlifted in as well as possible is certainly debatable, but "completely botched" seems like a ( perhaps partisan?) overstatement. 

Actually, I've been to Puerto Rico. The fact that it is not a very big island means that you can relatively quickly circumnavigate it.

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Just now, JoyinMudville said:

Actually, I've been to Puerto Rico. The fact that it is not a very big island means that you can relatively quickly circumnavigate it.

Yes, when the ports are functional, with power, and not littered with debris and wrecked boats, I'm sure that's true. Planes can land easily too when the airports are not in shambles and air traffic control is functional. In the immediate aftermath of Maria access to the island by either means was hardly routine. 

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6 hours ago, mcorioles said:

Are you an engineer?

Expert in infrastructure?

No.  But I have been on many if not most of the Caribbean islands and several South American countries.  I know third world conditions when I see them,

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9 hours ago, ivanbalt said:

That's the truth.  The pipes under Baltimore are 100+ years old.

Don't worry, Trump promised to fix it with his $1 trillion infrastructure plan. Wait... what?... oh...

Actually, Trump completely dropped the ball on that as well. There is no plan.

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5 hours ago, Papi said:

I agree that we would all be better off if Trump would just keep his mouth shut and cease the tweets. But I was not seeking to suggest any kind of equivalency, false or real. I was just pointing out facts that tend to get lost in the shuffle in attempts to either bash or defend Trump (or perhaps former presidents) by various posters.

This very clearly a humanitarian crisis, but unfortunately the coverage of it (which is all mixed together with opinions by various parties) has become so politicized that it is hard to know exactly what to believe. One report says that there are 19,000 federal government people (presumably civilian and military in some combination) on the ground there to help. Is that correct? Is it enough? Are they doing the right things? I don't know. Do you?

Aren't support operations still in motion in other areas due to Irma and Harvey? Those stories have all but faded away, but all of that damage has not been fixed already. Have we done enough there in those humanitarian crises?  I don't know. Do you?

NBC says 3500 homes and businesses have been burnt to the ground in California over the last few days. We have federal resouces being tasked there as well to try to fight the fires and protect lives. Has any of that been enough? I don't know. Do you? 

Were people dying in Houston and Irma 3 weeks post storm due to lack of water, medical care, power?

I know the answer to that. Assume you do as well.

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7 hours ago, JoyinMudville said:

Don't worry, Trump promised to fix it with his $1 trillion infrastructure plan. Wait... what?... oh...

Actually, Trump completely dropped the ball on that as well. There is no plan.

The president doesn't control the money.  Congress does.  Good luck getting that bunch to do anything, other than complain.

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11 minutes ago, overtaxed said:

The president doesn't control the money.  Congress does.  Good luck getting that bunch to do anything, other than complain.

So Trump presented his infrastructure plan?  I must have missed that.

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7 hours ago, ms maggie said:

Were people dying in Houston and Irma 3 weeks post storm due to lack of water, medical care, power?

I know the answer to that. Assume you do as well.

Houston is not an island a few hundred miles off the east coast. Neither is Florida. And while the damage done by Harvey and Irma was great, the level of devastation in PR by Maria was even worse. Are you really suggesting that getting things "back to normal" in all three situations are equally achievable? That is a true false equivalency. The situation is PR is both more severe and the tasks more difficult due to the fact that it is an island. Trump's stupid rhetoric aside, the three recovery efforts are not comparable. Perhaps FEMA and the military could do things faster, perhaps not. I don't know and in truth neither does anyone on this forum. 

Edited by Papi

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The OP must be a Trump supporter.

There should be an all out effort to stop the dying of our citizens in PR - but their skin is brown - so he'll toss more paper towels - and say we're not going to be there forever.

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16 minutes ago, Papi said:

Houston is not an island a few hundred miles off the east coast. Neither is Florida. And while the damage done by Harvey and Irma was great, the level of devastation in PR by Maria was even worse. Are you really suggesting that getting things "back to normal" in all three situations are equally achievable? That is a true false equivalency. The situation is PR is both more severe and the tasks more difficult due to the fact that it is an island. Trump's stupid rhetoric aside, the three recovery efforts are not comparable. Perhaps FEMA and the military could do things faster, perhaps not. I don't know and in truth neither does anyone on this forum. 

The local, on the ground reports speak for themselves. It's an island, so what? Was the fact it's an island a big surprise to our folks?

Haiti is an island as well.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/investigations/us-responded-to-haiti-quake-more-forcefully-than-to-puerto-rico-disaster/2017/09/28/74fe9c02-a465-11e7-8cfe-d5b912fabc99_story.html

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5 minutes ago, llubon said:

The OP must be a Trump supporter.

There should be an all out effort to stop the dying of our citizens in PR - but their skin is brown - so he'll toss more paper towels - and say we're not going to be there forever.

Actually the several Purto Ricans that I know (like my neighbor of 25 years and a former co-worker of my wife's) are not "brown" at all. Pretty fair skinned actually. Throwing skin color into this discussion is pretty desperate on your part.

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4 minutes ago, Papi said:

Actually the several Purto Ricans that I know (like my neighbor of 25 years and a former co-worker of my wife's) are not "brown" at all. Pretty fair skinned actually. Throwing skin color into this discussion is pretty desperate on your part.

When you're talking about Trump's motivation for blowing off Puerto Rico, race is unfortunately a big part of the discussion.

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2 minutes ago, ms maggie said:

The local, on the ground reports speak for themselves. It's an island, so what? Was the fact it's an island a big surprise to our folks?

Haiti is an island as well.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/investigations/us-responded-to-haiti-quake-more-forcefully-than-to-puerto-rico-disaster/2017/09/28/74fe9c02-a465-11e7-8cfe-d5b912fabc99_story.html

So now the response to Haiti is something to be used as a good example? It was pretty roundly criticized at the time, and even just recently there have been news reports about the lingering after effects in Haiti that continue to this day (some of which can be attributed by actions or inactions by the Haitian government). I think that you are being an armchair quarterback without any real knowledge of what it will actually take (in terms of time and resouces) to restore some level of "normalcy" to Puerto Rico. In my humble opinion the FEMA, military, and other civilian support people are far more capable than any of us here to assess and deal with the situation. We all need to shut up and let them do their jobs, and we need to ignore the bombast from the Moron in Chief. 

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8 hours ago, JoyinMudville said:

Don't worry, Trump promised to fix it with his $1 trillion infrastructure plan. Wait... what?... oh...

Actually, Trump completely dropped the ball on that as well. There is no plan.

I think Obama did too.

Oh well.

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9 minutes ago, JoyinMudville said:

When you're talking about Trump's motivation for blowing off Puerto Rico, race is unfortunately a big part of the discussion.

Personally, being that Trump generally doesn't do anything unless it can benefit Trump, I believe a more likely cause is the lack of electoral votes.

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