cprenegade

Lack of identity and direction could force sweeping changes

201 posts in this topic

10 hours ago, cprenegade said:

I doubt Harbaugh will go.  The injuries coupled with Flacco's play will probably save his job, even though Biscotti said people would be held accountable for bad seasons a few years back.  I do think there are reasons to be concerned.  I think his rah-rah, us against them message is getting stale.  Even with the injuries the Ravens have shown signs of coming out not emotionally prepared to play.   I rarely saw that prior to this year and last.  Justin Forsett commented on it early in the broadcast on Sunday.  Even though I am usually for coaching continuity, there are times when a fresh start is needed.  I just don't know if Biscotti will see it that way.  I do think the Raven's could benefit from a change in the front office.  Even though he is being paid GM money, I don't believe Eric DeCosta is going to wait around much longer.  He is 46 and has been an assistant GM since 2012.  He is highly regarded around the league and I would be surprised if he doesn't want a shot at being GM, even if it means leaving the Ravens.  I think maybe it's time to give him a chance and see what he can do in the draft.  Ozzie Newsome's last several drafts have failed to really upgrade this team offensively and his ability to bring in difference makers at WR has been atrocious.  It's obviously not all Ozzie, he gets a lot of input from others including DeCosta, but I assume the final word is his.  How heavily the Ravens seem to lean on Alabama for draft choices alone tells me Ozzie is the main voice behind the draft.   

Ozzie's last couple of drafts have been superior again. He did have a few years where he was off but I think he has done quite well recently. 

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7 hours ago, RavingManiac said:

Ozzie's last couple of drafts have been superior again. He did have a few years where he was off but I think he has done quite well recently. 

I disagree. There are zero impact players from the 2015 draft. One, maybe two in 2016 (Stanley being the one and Lewis the possible) . One possible in 2017(Humphrey) and not one playmaker in either draft. IMO of course. 

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2016 was good. A lot of useful guys. If we have a couple more drafts like that we'll be in much better shape.

Obviously need a difference maker, preferably on offense. We haven't drafted one of those since Moseley and even he's a bit overrated. On offense, the last difference maker was probably Torrey Smith in 2011.

Edited by Pickle20

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22 hours ago, cprenegade said:

I doubt Harbaugh will go.  The injuries coupled with Flacco's play will probably save his job, even though Biscotti said people would be held accountable for bad seasons a few years back.

If Harbaugh survives this year it will further corrode my confidence in Bisciotti actually meaning what he says, to wit: that people will be held accountable for bad seasons. To what extent is Flacco's bad play a consequence of Mornhinweg's play choices and coaching style? And M is Harbaugh's man. (Marty, change your name to something easier to spell. I recommend Smith or Jones.)

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18 minutes ago, Evil Yoda said:

If Harbaugh survives this year it will further corrode my confidence in Bisciotti actually meaning what he says, to wit: that people will be held accountable for bad seasons. To what extent is Flacco's bad play a consequence of Mornhinweg's play choices and coaching style? And M is Harbaugh's man. (Marty, change your name to something easier to spell. I recommend Smith or Jones.)

The injuries to the Oline will be Harb's pass. Bet money on it.

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1 hour ago, bmore_ken said:

The injuries to the Oline will be Harb's pass. Bet money on it.

Isn't part of Harbaugh's job as the coach to figure out why these injuries are occurring - or hire someone who can - and work to reduce them? As far as I know, he has done nothing to meet that goal. In addition, it is more Pees and Mornhinweg that need to go, but it is possible Bisciotti decided Harbaugh would have sole jurisdiction over their fates - meaning if they are to go, Harbaugh has to go. Neither coordinator impresses me. Pees was given considerable upgrades. The defense is good against the pass, but can't stop the run. The offense appears not to be working with the strengths of the men on the team. A problem I had with Juan Castillo was his insistence that the players adapt to his scheme, rather than him devising a scheme to their strengths. Marty seems to be equally inflexible.

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47 minutes ago, Evil Yoda said:

Isn't part of Harbaugh's job as the coach to figure out why these injuries are occurring - or hire someone who can - and work to reduce them? As far as I know, he has done nothing to meet that goal.

What do you expect him to do? Injuries happen in football, it's a brutal sport. 

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41 minutes ago, bmore_ken said:

What do you expect him to do? Injuries happen in football, it's a brutal sport. 

Seems like, two years now, the Ravens have nearly led the league in injuries. To key players. I can't help but wonder if the players are in good shape to play. Given their lack of depth (the second string guys are *a lot* worse than the starters), that's a problem. The Patriots had a lot of injuries last year and it didn't seem to bother them nearly as much. Harbaugh and the front office need to figure out why. What's different between the two organizations? How can the Ravens improve their organization? That kind of thing.

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15 hours ago, RavingManiac said:

Ozzie's last couple of drafts have been superior again. He did have a few years where he was off but I think he has done quite well recently. 

 

7 hours ago, bmore_ken said:

I disagree. There are zero impact players from the 2015 draft. One, maybe two in 2016 (Stanley being the one and Lewis the possible) . One possible in 2017(Humphrey) and not one playmaker in either draft. IMO of course. 

I have to agree that the drafts have been less than hitting it out of the park.  2017 will take a while to judge.  2016 had some good players and maybe was a bit above average.  2015 was dismal.  Perriman is a flat out bust and Williams is far from an impact player.  The problem is that Ozzie rarely drafts skill players who have an impact on the offense.  He has a few hits, but far more misses.  And the offense has been the biggest problem with the Ravens for a long time.  

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2 hours ago, cprenegade said:

 

I have to agree that the drafts have been less than hitting it out of the park.  2017 will take a while to judge.  2016 had some good players and maybe was a bit above average.  2015 was dismal.  Perriman is a flat out bust and Williams is far from an impact player.  The problem is that Ozzie rarely drafts skill players who have an impact on the offense.  He has a few hits, but far more misses.  And the offense has been the biggest problem with the Ravens for a long time.  

Since 2012, if you measure the players selected against their impact on the field, the Ravens' drafts have been noticeably weak.

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18 hours ago, bmore_ken said:

I disagree. There are zero impact players from the 2015 draft. One, maybe two in 2016 (Stanley being the one and Lewis the possible) . One possible in 2017(Humphrey) and not one playmaker in either draft. IMO of course. 

yEAH I went back and took a look at 2015. Waller could be pretty good and Zadarius Smith is looking decent along will carl davis but no real big splash. I'd give it a C

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8 hours ago, mdrunning said:

Since 2012, if you measure the players selected against their impact on the field, the Ravens' drafts have been noticeably weak.

Exactly the way I see it, although i didn’t go back that far. He’s drafted some contributors, but few impact guys and no real playmakers.

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I think the 2016 draft was solid. 

2017 we'll see, but right now I'm really liking Humphrey, he's been playing really well. 

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On 10/23/2017 at 10:12 AM, Pickle20 said:

The Flacco contract was a perfect storm that benefitted Flacco and knowingly left the Ravens in a bind. I mean, you HAVE to pay a QB who pretty much singlehandedly won you a SB. To underpay him and potentially lose him after that would have been disastrous.

I’m tired of making that point. Some people are just never going to get it 

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1 hour ago, bmore_ken said:

I’m tired of making that point. Some people are just never going to get it 

Hey, they could have cut him and brought Elvis out of retirement. 

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13 minutes ago, Rael said:

Hey, they could have cut him and brought Elvis out of retirement. 

To have the Browns sign him and put up 400 yard 4 TD games against us? :D

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10 hours ago, alienrace said:

I think the 2016 draft was solid. 

2017 we'll see, but right now I'm really liking Humphrey, he's been playing really well. 

The 2016 draft was pretty good, defensive wise.  And Ronny Stanley was obviously a good pick.  But once again very little help in the way of dynamic offensive play makers which is what the Ravens desperately need.  The only skill players drafted were Chris Moore who has had little impact on the offense, and Ken Dixon who has trouble staying on the field.  And Keenan Reynolds who they drafted and tried to convert to WR.   At some point in time the FO has to prove that they can draft some young skill talent that develops on the field.  The offense has been a drag on the Raven's ability to consistently win for a few years now.  

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8 hours ago, cprenegade said:

The 2016 draft was pretty good, defensive wise.  And Ronny Stanley was obviously a good pick.  But once again very little help in the way of dynamic offensive play makers which is what the Ravens desperately need.  The only skill players drafted were Chris Moore who has had little impact on the offense, and Ken Dixon who has trouble staying on the field.  And Keenan Reynolds who they drafted and tried to convert to WR.   At some point in time the FO has to prove that they can draft some young skill talent that develops on the field.  The offense has been a drag on the Raven's ability to consistently win for a few years now.  

Yes, it has for sure.

I think because from 2012-2014, the defense began rebuilding, that Ozzie focused pretty heavily on that side of the ball, as well as offensive line.  I think Ozzie has done really well on O-Lineman over the years, and that really gets overlooked.  Look at all of the pro-bowl guys we've had, and the guys that priced themselves off of the team as well.  The defense really needed focus with the secondary being a major liability since 2014, as well as the pass rush.  Perriman was an attempt at a playmaker, and that was obviously a big swing and a miss, and I blame Ozzie for that one.  I do think though that the plan this year was to get playmakers in FA, like Maclin and Woodhead.  These aren't A listers, but they are still good players.  The real shame to me is that I think that this team, had they been able to stay healthy, would have been an AFC favorite.  I know not a lot of people on this board share my opinion on that, but I'm sticking by it.  We are TWO boneheaded Perriman plays away from being 6-2.  That much I think everyone knows.

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2 hours ago, alienrace said:

Perriman was an attempt at a playmaker, and that was obviously a big swing and a miss, and I blame Ozzie for that one. 

The part I don't understand is I don't follow college that closely and even I had heard the Perriman's rep was fast with hands of stone. Surely Ozzie knew that too. While I realize that you can't teach speed, we don't seem to be any better at teaching catching techniques. How about the next receiver we draft already knows how to catch the ball? That would be a good place to start in my humble opinion. 

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19 minutes ago, Rael said:

The part I don't understand is I don't follow college that closely and even I had heard the Perriman's rep was fast with hands of stone. Surely Ozzie knew that too. While I realize that you can't teach speed, we don't seem to be any better at teaching catching techniques. How about the next receiver we draft already knows how to catch the ball? That would be a good place to start in my humble opinion. 

Yeah, I remember the FO saying that his catch percentage was low because they threw him a lot of jump balls, trying to explain it away.  I gave them the benefit of the doubt.  I didn't really see him play.  I bet in their minds they thought "athlete", we can teach him to catch better. 

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12 hours ago, cprenegade said:

The 2016 draft was pretty good, defensive wise.  And Ronny Stanley was obviously a good pick.  But once again very little help in the way of dynamic offensive play makers which is what the Ravens desperately need.  The only skill players drafted were Chris Moore who has had little impact on the offense, and Ken Dixon who has trouble staying on the field.  And Keenan Reynolds who they drafted and tried to convert to WR.   At some point in time the FO has to prove that they can draft some young skill talent that develops on the field.  The offense has been a drag on the Raven's ability to consistently win for a few years now.  

The front office really doesn't have to prove anything really. They have two Super Bowls with the last one being just 5 years ago. You can sit there and say they have to draft good wide receivers but they really don't. As you guys say, Ozzie has never drafted a good wide receiver yet he has won two Super Bowls. I'm sure you will reply back with a "Yeah, but..." yet there is nothing you can say that minimizes the fact he has two Super Bowls under his belt which is a huge accomplishment.

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35 minutes ago, RavingManiac said:

The front office really doesn't have to prove anything really. They have two Super Bowls with the last one being just 5 years ago. You can sit there and say they have to draft good wide receivers but they really don't. As you guys say, Ozzie has never drafted a good wide receiver yet he has won two Super Bowls. I'm sure you will reply back with a "Yeah, but..." yet there is nothing you can say that minimizes the fact he has two Super Bowls under his belt which is a huge accomplishment.

You know what "NFL" stands for? Not For Long. Yes, the front office has produced in the past. But this is very much a "What have you done for me lately?" league. No front office or coaching staff will keep its job if it has to rely on what it did ten, five, even two years ago as justification. Your point that Ozzie has major accomplishments is valid. But that trophy case (actual and virtual) doesn't count for much going forward. Not if winning truly matters. If it did, the Orioles could claim they were a great franchise on the strength of their previous World Series victories. Are the Orioles a great franchise? Have they been one recently?

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4 hours ago, Evil Yoda said:

You know what "NFL" stands for? Not For Long. Yes, the front office has produced in the past. But this is very much a "What have you done for me lately?" league. No front office or coaching staff will keep its job if it has to rely on what it did ten, five, even two years ago as justification. Your point that Ozzie has major accomplishments is valid. But that trophy case (actual and virtual) doesn't count for much going forward. Not if winning truly matters. If it did, the Orioles could claim they were a great franchise on the strength of their previous World Series victories. Are the Orioles a great franchise? Have they been one recently?

It’s absolutely silly to use the orioles as an example to prove your point. It’s also silly for any team to get rid of the front office because they are losing two years after a Super Bowl. Ozzie has proven twice since 2000 he knows the formula to win a Super  Bowl with the last one just five years ago. What is his formula? Much to your disliking, I believe it is a great defense and a very average offense. Most of the money will be spent on defense. Little money on the offensive line. Little money on receivers. You think that’s stupid. Well it got us two Super Bowls. How many other teams wish they could say that? In fact, what GM would you like to switch with, Yoda? Green Bay? Dallas? They both seem to spend the money the way you like. What has that gotten them? Dallas has a great offensive line. They know that you have to have a great offensive line to win Super Bowls. Yeah, they better win a couple of them within the next 3 years because Dak is going to want to get paid. Where are all these great offenses that win Super Bowls? Pittsburgh knows how to draft receivers. Yeah, they are pretty average. Maybe they are slightly above average. They don’t have a chance at winning it all. Why? They don’t have a good enough defense. Well once they get a good defense then they will be great. Sounds easy but they won’t get a great defense because too much money is tied up in offense.

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1 hour ago, RavingManiac said:

It’s absolutely silly to use the orioles as an example to prove your point. It’s also silly for any team to get rid of the front office because they are losing two years after a Super Bowl. Ozzie has proven twice since 2000 he knows the formula to win a Super  Bowl with the last one just five years ago. What is his formula? Much to your disliking, I believe it is a great defense and a very average offense. Most of the money will be spent on defense. Little money on the offensive line. Little money on receivers. You think that’s stupid. Well it got us two Super Bowls. How many other teams wish they could say that? In fact, what GM would you like to switch with, Yoda? Green Bay? Dallas? They both seem to spend the money the way you like. What has that gotten them? Dallas has a great offensive line. They know that you have to have a great offensive line to win Super Bowls. Yeah, they better win a couple of them within the next 3 years because Dak is going to want to get paid. Where are all these great offenses that win Super Bowls? Pittsburgh knows how to draft receivers. Yeah, they are pretty average. Maybe they are slightly above average. They don’t have a chance at winning it all. Why? They don’t have a good enough defense. Well once they get a good defense then they will be great. Sounds easy but they won’t get a great defense because too much money is tied up in offense.

First off, you're assuming a great many things about what I believe, and making some claims about what I wrote that aren't true. Ozzie did well to draft the guys that won a pair of Superbowls it means little years later. Many of those men are gone now, retired or with other teams. The past is good for the trophy case. Past success is an argument for trusting Ozzie's judgement, but only to a point. The 2017 Ravens have an excellent pass defense, a mediocre rush defense, and a terrible offense this year. Except for Collins, they've had little ground success and less air success. Let's not sugar coat anything by calling that unit average. It isn't. The problems with the O-line and receiving corps are partially due to injuries, which no one can predict, and partially because Ozzie chose not to do anything serious about it in the off season despite having a relatively immobile QB who needs protection for his plays to develop. With the exception of Torrey Smith (who they allowed to leave), Ozzie has whiffed every single time he has selected a receiver. He can't do it. He's had better luck trading for them, but then he lets them walk away (Boldin) when they could still help Joe succeed. Ozzie has made many successful moves but he has failed, too. I don't worship him the way some fans do. That's the sum of my message here. You call Pittsburgh average and the Ravens great (D) and average (O). I ask you who is looking up and whom?

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1 hour ago, RavingManiac said:

It’s absolutely silly to use the orioles as an example to prove your point. It’s also silly for any team to get rid of the front office because they are losing two years after a Super Bowl. Ozzie has proven twice since 2000 he knows the formula to win a Super  Bowl with the last one just five years ago. What is his formula? Much to your disliking, I believe it is a great defense and a very average offense. Most of the money will be spent on defense. Little money on the offensive line. Little money on receivers. You think that’s stupid. Well it got us two Super Bowls. How many other teams wish they could say that? In fact, what GM would you like to switch with, Yoda? Green Bay? Dallas? They both seem to spend the money the way you like. What has that gotten them? Dallas has a great offensive line. They know that you have to have a great offensive line to win Super Bowls. Yeah, they better win a couple of them within the next 3 years because Dak is going to want to get paid. Where are all these great offenses that win Super Bowls? Pittsburgh knows how to draft receivers. Yeah, they are pretty average. Maybe they are slightly above average. They don’t have a chance at winning it all. Why? They don’t have a good enough defense. Well once they get a good defense then they will be great. Sounds easy but they won’t get a great defense because too much money is tied up in offense.

That's a pretty interesting statement considering Pittsburgh currently has a higher ranked defense than the Ravens, both in total defense and in many categories.  Their defense is actually outperforming their high powered offense.  They've done it by letting most of their older players go and replacing them through the draft with young players that are beginning to produce results.  And they had enough money to bring in Joe Haden right before the season started.   I don't know if they have enough to win it all, but they are running away with the AFC North and could be positioned well for the playoffs.  Teams with high powered offenses and no defense usually don't win it all.  But neither anymore do teams with good defenses and terrible offenses.  That's where the Ravens are.  Their offense is bottom of the barrel both statistically and talent wise.  You have to be able to score some points in order to consistently win, and they haven't demonstrated that ability for a few years now.  That's on the FO.  It's their job to draft the talent to at least make the team a viable offense.  The FO was great in assembling two super bowl runs during the Ray Lewis era, both times bringing in key FA's or trading for key players to put them over the top among the competition.   But in the post Ray Lewis era, the FO has not been quite as efficient, especially on the offensive side of the ball.  

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