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Rob

Orioles approach 2 starting pitchers

60 posts in this topic

18 hours ago, Evil Yoda said:

I'd be okay offering Tillman an extremely low base salary with many incentives, for a potential ~$13M if he hits them all. Give him a chance to see if he's really washed up at a low risk. Incentives would include innings pitched, WHIP below some threshold, ERA below a threshold, and suchlike.

I'd also be okay offering Miley an extremely low base salary with many incentives, for a potential ~$0.13 if he hits them all.

For what it's worth

I was listening to Jim Duquette on the radio. They were talking about these offers. The question was posed, does MLB have incentive deals. He said innings pitched and games won, but they can't do deals based on the stats you've mentioned. I'm not sure if those incentives are specifically off the table because of the contract with the Players Union, of if it's just not done. But He did say the word "can't". 

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43 minutes ago, CROUSEMAN said:

You have to love the O's putting out the word through MASN that Cobb is too expensive before he even hits the market.  This team is pathetic when it comes to starting pitching. Just a disgrace.

Classic ownership move. I'd use the roll eyes or sad emoji, but this was so obviously going to happen, I can't muster an emotional response.  :mellow:

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4 minutes ago, weird-O said:

Classic ownership move. I'd use the roll eyes or sad emoji, but this was so obviously going to happen, I can't muster an emotional response.  :mellow:

Yeah its like clock work every off season.  Wont buy pitching, cant develop pitching,  Well you know how this will end in 2018.  

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Here's what I found 

Quote

Incentive Clause

Definition

Incentives in contracts allow players to earn additional money by achieving certain predetermined benchmarks. Major League Baseball's Basic Agreement prohibits incentives from being awarded based on statistical achievement. Thus, playing time is the near-universal means by which players receive incentives. Pitchers with incentive-laden contracts typically trigger the incentives based on number of innings pitched, number of games started, number of relief appearances, number of games finished, etc. Hitters will most commonly trigger incentives based on plate appearances. Some contracts also contain roster bonuses, which reward a player simply for staying on the active roster for a certain number of days.

In the 2011 wave of collective bargaining agreement negotiations, milestone bonuses were prohibited by the league, meaning that players can no longer receive contractual bonuses for reaching plateaus such as their 3,000th hit, 500th home run, 200th win, etc.

Example

In the 2015-16 offseason, the Astros signed Doug Fister to a one-year contract with a $7 million guarantee. His contract contained up to $5 million worth of incentives, allowing him to earn a maximum of $12 million for the 2016 season.

http://m.mlb.com/glossary/transactions/incentive-clause

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20 hours ago, Evil Yoda said:

I'd be okay offering Tillman an extremely low base salary with many incentives, for a potential ~$13M if he hits them all. Give him a chance to see if he's really washed up at a low risk. Incentives would include innings pitched, WHIP below some threshold, ERA below a threshold, and suchlike.

I'd also be okay offering Miley an extremely low base salary with many incentives, for a potential ~$0.13 if he hits them all.

Hell, I'll chip in the 13 cents. 

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5 hours ago, Dystopia said:

If they bring back Jimenez I will not watch a single game.

 

5 hours ago, bmore_ken said:

That makes two of us. I sort of tuned out in the second half as it was because they kept throwing him out there.

Make me #3. The turd has been flushed, once and for all. Don't use a plunger to bring the turd back. :mad:

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3 hours ago, weird-O said:

I was listening to Jim Duquette on the radio. They were talking about these offers. The question was posed, does MLB have incentive deals. He said innings pitched and games won, but they can't do deals based on the stats you've mentioned. I'm not sure if those incentives are specifically off the table because of the contract with the Players Union, of if it's just not done. But He did say the word "can't". 

Interesting. While I've never heard that the CBA goes into minute detail about what you can offer and what you cannot, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that, either. In that case, let Tillman try one of 29 other clubs. If he can't or won't accept a "prove you're not cooked" contract, then speaking solely for myself, I wouldn't be interested.

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44 minutes ago, Rob said:

Make me #3. The turd has been flushed, once and for all. Don't use a plunger to bring the turd back. :mad:

Please put my membership kit in the mail.

The Orioles have one job this offseason. To improve the rotation. How well they do that job will directly affect how interested I am in them in '18. Someone he trusts and respects needs to have a heart-to-heart with the old man about pitching and its importance.

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Pathetic. Sick of it. Miley is complete garbage not even worth a free deal. 

Oh I forgot, the Orioles are familiar with him and he has a track record so pay him millions to lose games and tax the bullpen. Genius. 

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30 minutes ago, BayAreaBmore said:

Pathetic. Sick of it. Miley is complete garbage not even worth a free deal. 

Oh I forgot, the Orioles are familiar with him and he has a track record so pay him millions to lose games and tax the bullpen. Genius. 

But.... he was good for a month..... he carried the staff..... :rolleyes: 

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12 hours ago, weird-O said:

For what it's worth

I was listening to Jim Duquette on the radio. They were talking about these offers. The question was posed, does MLB have incentive deals. He said innings pitched and games won, but they can't do deals based on the stats you've mentioned. I'm not sure if those incentives are specifically off the table because of the contract with the Players Union, of if it's just not done. But He did say the word "can't". 

Most of those incentives were bargained out of existence in the 2012 Basic Agreement. It was largely done to prevent teams from finding loopholes that would enable them to avoid the luxury tax. Milestone bonuses and personal service agreements aren't considered guaranteed money and therefore don't count against the luxury tax.

Today, pitchers with incentive-laden contracts typically trigger the incentives based on number of innings pitched, number of games started, games finished, number of relief appearances, etc. For hitters, it's usually plate appearances. Some contracts do contain roster bonuses, which pay out if the player remains on the active roster for a specified period of time.

 

 

Edited by mdrunning

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It really makes no sense for Miley to come back here for one year when could likely land a better "pillow" deal elsewhere--probably in the National League.

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8 hours ago, mdrunning said:

It really makes no sense for Miley to come back here for one year when could likely land a better "pillow" deal elsewhere--probably in the National League.

Jim Duquette said the same thing. He said Miley will easily get a contract to his liking, and it will probably be in the NL. That's how scarce pitching is. It seems like a club could easily plug in an inexpensive pitcher that could give 160 innings with a 5.61 ERA and 1.729 WHIP, but I guess not. 

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10 hours ago, mdrunning said:

Most of those incentives were bargained out of existence in the 2012 Basic Agreement. It was largely done to prevent teams from finding loopholes that would enable them to avoid the luxury tax. Milestone bonuses and personal service agreements aren't considered guaranteed money and therefore don't count against the luxury tax.

Today, pitchers with incentive-laden contracts typically trigger the incentives based on number of innings pitched, number of games started, games finished, number of relief appearances, etc. For hitters, it's usually plate appearances. Some contracts do contain roster bonuses, which pay out if the player remains on the active roster for a specified period of time.

This seems fixable: the guaranteed money counts for that year's luxury tax. Incentives paid count against the following year's luxury tax.

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On 10/31/2017 at 7:40 AM, weird-O said:

Why aren't they already talking to UJ? 

They are waiting to announce he will be the opening day starter.

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14 hours ago, Evil Yoda said:

This seems fixable: the guaranteed money counts for that year's luxury tax. Incentives paid count against the following year's luxury tax.

It was fixed. Both the union and owners to do away with performance-based incentives that pertain specifically to batting or pitching skill.

The trouble with your proposal is that the MLB luxury tax is a progressive tax; teams were charged increasingly higher rates for each consecutive year their payrolls exceeded a specified limit. (The reason the Yankees were trying to get below the tax threshold was simply because, under the old rules, if a team avoided the luxury tax for one season, the slate was wiped clean.)

The rules will change a bit in 2018, however. Without going into the all of the specifics, teams which spend big will not only be subject to a specified tax rate, but there will also be surcharges, and possibly even have its first draft pick dropped 10 spots should a team's payroll exceed a prescribed level. A team backloading contracts with performance incentives could suddenly find itself in luxury tax hell should it have a number of players cash in on their incentives. Better to have cost certainty when projecting payroll.

 

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16 hours ago, weird-O said:

Jim Duquette said the same thing. He said Miley will easily get a contract to his liking, and it will probably be in the NL. That's how scarce pitching is. It seems like a club could easily plug in an inexpensive pitcher that could give 160 innings with a 5.61 ERA and 1.729 WHIP, but I guess not. 

I was reading Dan Connolly's most recent column, and his sentiments regarding Miley were pretty much the same as you cite above.

He also touches on what the Orioles could or should do in order to bring in starting pitching. Guys like Ynoa and Castro might be fine to plug in as back-of-the-rotation starters if needed, but the Orioles can't go into the season that way. They'll likely land at least one starter in free agency, but he isn't likely to be the ace they desperately need. First of all, forget guys like Yu Darvish, Alex Cobb or Jake Arrieta. The Orioles are never going to pay what it would take to get them, and, in fairness, I tend to agree. Mega deals such as the ones they're likely to get rarely work out.

That leaves middle-tier guys like Jason Vargas, Lance Lynn or maybe even Andrew Cashner. Trouble is, even pitchers such as these with other suitors aren't going to pick Camden Yards unless they're way overpaid (think Ubaldo). And pitchers looking for the aforementioned "pillow" contract aren't going to make Camden Yards their preferred destination, either.There was also mentioned the possibility of Duquette tapping the International pro market, hoping to land the next Wei-Yin Chen. There will probably be some recycling as well, such as bringing back Tillman for a one-year deal (and from what I've heard, he seems open to it), and possibly bringing back Miguel Gonzalez if the price is right.

The possibility of trading for a starter was also mentioned--even one with an unwieldy contract--although no specifics were mentioned. Granted, it's difficult to get into specifics in late October/early November, but I would be curious to see which pitchers could be had in such a manner.

 

 

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5 hours ago, mdrunning said:

I was reading Dan Connolly's most recent column, and his sentiments regarding Miley were pretty much the same as you cite above.

He also touches on what the Orioles could or should do in order to bring in starting pitching. Guys like Ynoa and Castro might be fine to plug in as back-of-the-rotation starters if needed, but the Orioles can't go into the season that way. They'll likely land at least one starter in free agency, but he isn't likely to be the ace they desperately need. First of all, forget guys like Yu Darvish, Alex Cobb or Jake Arrieta. The Orioles are never going to pay what it would take to get them, and, in fairness, I tend to agree. Mega deals such as the ones they're likely to get rarely work out.

That leaves middle-tier guys like Jason Vargas, Lance Lynn or maybe even Andrew Cashner. Trouble is, even pitchers such as these with other suitors aren't going to pick Camden Yards unless they're way overpaid (think Ubaldo). And pitchers looking for the aforementioned "pillow" contract aren't going to make Camden Yards their preferred destination, either.There was also mentioned the possibility of Duquette tapping the International pro market, hoping to land the next Wei-Yin Chen. There will probably be some recycling as well, such as bringing back Tillman for a one-year deal (and from what I've heard, he seems open to it), and possibly bringing back Miguel Gonzalez if the price is right.

The possibility of trading for a starter was also mentioned--even one with an unwieldy contract--although no specifics were mentioned. Granted, it's difficult to get into specifics in late October/early November, but I would be curious to see which pitchers could be had in such a manner.

 

 

So you are basically saying the rotation will be Bundy, Gausman, Tillman, Gonzo and Ynoa?  Or something like that.  Well isn't that just dandy. Sad as it is, you probably aren't far off.

Tillman and Ynoa are probably locks.  There is great demand for Tillman from the fan base so this is a cheap no brainer for DD and Buck.  Who cares if the guy cant pitch a lick anymore.  The fans wanted him back.  We're off the hook. lol!

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Tillman, I can understand, an incentive-laden one year deal. After imploding in 2017, he’s not getting  multi-year contract elsewhere.

Miley, ugh, if he’s brought back, I am NOT renewing my season tickets.

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On 10/31/2017 at 5:29 PM, Rob said:

 

Make me #3. The turd has been flushed, once and for all. Don't use a plunger to bring the turd back. :mad:

Don't be surprised if they need an arm he comes in on a minor league deal.

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It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Miley gets a 2 yr /15mil deal in the NL.  He is LH and had a few short stretches where is was pretty good.  Like I said in another thread, Charlie Morton got a 2 yr/14mil deal coming off a season where he pitched in 4 games.  See where this is going?  The O's are already priced out of the FA pitching market.  They realized this early this time when they already threw up the white flag on Cobb.  Pathetic,

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1 hour ago, CROUSEMAN said:

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Miley gets a 2 yr /15mil deal in the NL.  He is LH and had a few short stretches where is was pretty good.  Like I said in another thread, Charlie Morton got a 2 yr/14mil deal coming off a season where he pitched in 4 games.  See where this is going?  The O's are already priced out of the FA pitching market.  They realized this early this time when they already threw up the white flag on Cobb.  Pathetic,

Cobb hit free agency at the perfect time. He was going to get paid, no matter what. But In a thin FA pitching market, cha-ching  

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56 minutes ago, Mr. Buzzcut said:

Ynoa and Castro?

2018 is going to be brutal.

If that's the rotation, they'll be out of it by June. Gausman is a 3 month pitcher. He does well after the AS break. But for the first 3 months, he's a dumpster fire. Bundy is the best they have. He's a legit pitcher. Tillman is a question mark. No team that plans to contend, puts a question mark in the #3 slot. This team's window closes after 2018. Yet they're going to approach it like they have all the time in the world. Kind of like the way Harbaugh coaches a football game. He approaches it, as if there isn't a timer.   

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