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hst2

Where do kids learn to undervalue women? From their parents.

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For the past year, I’ve been interviewing mothers who work outside the home for a book about their experiences raising children with men. Too often, although not always, I hear some version of the story a woman in Portland, Ore., told me: “He’s great with the kids, and from friends I talk to, my husband does a lot more. But he’s on his phone or computer while I’m running around like a crazy person getting the kids’ stuff, doing the laundry. He has his coffee in the morning reading his phone while I’m packing lunches, getting our daughter’s clothes out, helping our son with his homework. He just sits there. He doesn’t do it on purpose. He has no awareness of what’s happening around him. I ask him about it and he gets defensive. It’s the same in the evening. He helps with dinner, but then I’m off to doing tooth-brushing and bedtime, and he’ll be sitting there on his phone.”

...The result of this covert power imbalance is not a net zero. A growing body of research in family and clinical studies demonstrates that spousal equality promotes marital success and that inequality undermines it. And the disparity creates not only undue emotional, physical and financial strain on mothers, but also perpetuates attitudes about what is and should be acceptable — or even desirable — between a woman and a man, with children as their eager audience.

...Ideals are no substitute for behavior. What are kids to make of their father sitting on his phone reading Facebook while their mother scrambles to prepare them for the day? It’s not hard to predict which parent’s personhood those offspring will conclude is more valuable. Children are gender detectives, distinguishing between the sexes from as early as 18 months and using that information to guide their behavior, for example by choosing strongly stereotyped toys. And family research shows that men’s attitudes about marital roles, not women’s, are ultimately internalized by both their daughters and their sons. This finding is a testament to kids’ ability to identify implicit power, to parse whose beliefs are more important and therefore worth adopting as their own.

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Sexism isn't born from treating women badly, cruelly or in any way that isn't considered perfectly normal in our culture.

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1 hour ago, hst2 said:

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Sexism isn't born from treating women badly, cruelly or in any way that isn't considered perfectly normal in our culture.

Yeah.  Absentee fathers who are no more than sperm donors and a culture that glorifies the attitudes toward women in rap music and refers to them as "HOs" and another word for female dogs is probably just coincidental.  You know they aren't seeing such behavior from many of the athletes who are glorified despite their behavior either.

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24 minutes ago, Ode2Joy said:

Yeah.  Absentee fathers who are no more than sperm donors and a culture that glorifies the attitudes toward women in rap music and refers to them as "HOs" and another word for female dogs is probably just coincidental.  You know they aren't seeing such behavior from many of the athletes who are glorified despite their behavior either.

INDEED

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30 minutes ago, Ode2Joy said:

Yeah.  Absentee fathers who are no more than sperm donors and a culture that glorifies the attitudes toward women in rap music and refers to them as "HOs" and another word for female dogs is probably just coincidental.  You know they aren't seeing such behavior from many of the athletes who are glorified despite their behavior either.

Interestingly, it doesn't seem to help that the father is there. In some ways, it may even work against.

After all, the article point out that children learn by watching the father. Hard to watch a father who isn't there.

Nice try just trying to blame Black folks. Kind of transparent, isn't it?

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3 minutes ago, hst2 said:

Interestingly, it doesn't seem to help that the father is there. In some ways, it may even work against.

After all, the article point out that children learn by watching the father. Hard to watch a father who isn't there.

Nice try just trying to blame Black folks. Kind of transparent, isn't it?

Nice try just pretending that black folks are the only ones who listen to and buy rap music and hip hop.  Kind of stereotypical and transparent of you, isn't it?  Ditto RE sports figures.

Sorry.  I'm just feeling the white guilt thing today. 'specially when it's coming from someone with nearly 64K posts going on about how men spend too much time on the PC or phone while the little lady is supposedly doing stereotypical "women's work" around the house.

 

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4 minutes ago, Ode2Joy said:

Nice try just pretending that black folks are the only ones who listen to and buy rap music and hip hop.  Kind of stereotypical and transparent of you, isn't it?  Ditto RE sports figures.

Sorry.  I'm just feeling the white guilt thing today. 'specially when it's coming from someone with nearly 64K posts going on about how men spend too much time on the PC or phone while the little lady is supposedly doing stereotypical "women's work" around the house.

 

Sure. Far more Black families have single parent households and far more Blacks listen to rap. What does your anti-Black rant have to do with the article? And why do you hide the motive for your comment. Just be honest about it. Or better yet, talk about the article. That's the point of the thread.

Edited by hst2

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Riddle me this Hst2. For the first 6 years of my kids life my wife worked 6 days per week, I worked nightwork on rotating shifts. The way it worked out, I was home during the day most of the time, I took care of the kids, fed them, bathed them, changed diapers, and cleaned one room a day between laundry loads, which I did every other day. I would go to work at night, come home dog tired, and did all the above, getting a nap here and there in a recliner when they napped. Maybe 45 mins by time I got what ever house work I had to do done. Wifey got home, took over, I got about an hour or 2 sleep, get up, eat and go to work. 

  So now for the riddle, my youngest boy graduated. He walks around sagging his pants, treating women disrespectful in a number of different ways, sleeping around, cursing at them (unless I'm in earshot) among other things. He got in my wife's face once when he was 16. I put him on his arse with an open hand. That was the last time he disrespected her or any women in front of me. Yet word gets back to me that he is still disrespectful to women. How do you explain that?

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12 minutes ago, mrdeltoid said:

Riddle me this Hst2. For the first 6 years of my kids life my wife worked 6 days per week, I worked nightwork on rotating shifts. The way it worked out, I was home during the day most of the time, I took care of the kids, fed them, bathed them, changed diapers, and cleaned one room a day between laundry loads, which I did every other day. I would go to work at night, come home dog tired, and did all the above, getting a nap here and there in a recliner when they napped. Maybe 45 mins by time I got what ever house work I had to do done. Wifey got home, took over, I got about an hour or 2 sleep, get up, eat and go to work. 

  So now for the riddle, my youngest boy graduated. He walks around sagging his pants, treating women disrespectful in a number of different ways, sleeping around, cursing at them (unless I'm in earshot) among other things. He got in my wife's face once when he was 16. I put him on his arse with an open hand. That was the last time he disrespected her or any women in front of me. Yet word gets back to me that he is still disrespectful to women. How do you explain that?

Maybe he has been taught that might makes right.

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3 hours ago, hst2 said:

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Sexism isn't born from treating women badly, cruelly or in any way that isn't considered perfectly normal in our culture.

Takes a long time to change culture. For generations men worked outside the home and women tended to the home and kids.

Things are changing. I have noticed a pronounced difference with my kids, my nieces and most of their friends. These are people from their late twenties to late thirties. Both parents work full-time and the home/kids duties are pretty evenly divided. Takes time.

There will be biological imperatives. Your average man is a lot better able to shovel out the driveway. You breast feed an infant you're going to do the bulk of the feeding.

But in general see the overall trend changing, albeit slowly. Some changes are generational.

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44 minutes ago, mrdeltoid said:

Riddle me this Hst2. For the first 6 years of my kids life my wife worked 6 days per week, I worked nightwork on rotating shifts. The way it worked out, I was home during the day most of the time, I took care of the kids, fed them, bathed them, changed diapers, and cleaned one room a day between laundry loads, which I did every other day. I would go to work at night, come home dog tired, and did all the above, getting a nap here and there in a recliner when they napped. Maybe 45 mins by time I got what ever house work I had to do done. Wifey got home, took over, I got about an hour or 2 sleep, get up, eat and go to work. 

  So now for the riddle, my youngest boy graduated. He walks around sagging his pants, treating women disrespectful in a number of different ways, sleeping around, cursing at them (unless I'm in earshot) among other things. He got in my wife's face once when he was 16. I put him on his arse with an open hand. That was the last time he disrespected her or any women in front of me. Yet word gets back to me that he is still disrespectful to women. How do you explain that?

I have heard a hundred stories like yours.

Kids are... well, an enigma.  Some come out good, great, rotten, and everything in between.  Some get treated poorly, others quite fairly, yet I've not seen any kind of consistency to their response.  Oh, sure, there are horrible examples at either end of the spectrum, but it is just that; a spectrum.

Mine hit adulthood ten years ago.  One is succeeding beyond expectations, the other, well, just kinda gave up, had a heart attack and died at 27.  Raised identically, as ideally as their mom and dad could manage.  But there is absolutely no accounting for how they turn out.  We do our best and hope, and sometimes fool ourselves into thinking 'we've got this'.  But in the end, our children are individual human beings, with their own lives and karma to live out.  

Love the kid.  Be there for him, and ultimately, let him go.  It's all we can do.

 

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36 minutes ago, hst2 said:

Maybe he has been taught that might makes right.

Dayum, there was no call for that.

I would suppose that mrdeltoid's son has chosen, unwisely, to follow the lead of his friends and acquaintances rather than his father. That's a shame but, it happens. 

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1 hour ago, mrdeltoid said:

Riddle me this Hst2. For the first 6 years of my kids life my wife worked 6 days per week, I worked nightwork on rotating shifts. The way it worked out, I was home during the day most of the time, I took care of the kids, fed them, bathed them, changed diapers, and cleaned one room a day between laundry loads, which I did every other day. I would go to work at night, come home dog tired, and did all the above, getting a nap here and there in a recliner when they napped. Maybe 45 mins by time I got what ever house work I had to do done. Wifey got home, took over, I got about an hour or 2 sleep, get up, eat and go to work. 

  So now for the riddle, my youngest boy graduated. He walks around sagging his pants, treating women disrespectful in a number of different ways, sleeping around, cursing at them (unless I'm in earshot) among other things. He got in my wife's face once when he was 16. I put him on his arse with an open hand. That was the last time he disrespected her or any women in front of me. Yet word gets back to me that he is still disrespectful to women. How do you explain that?

It sounds to me perhaps that your son has surrounded himself with friends that lack character, and there's likely a toxic personality in that group that has assumed an alpha-role. Your son accepts the beta role in that scenario. 

8 minutes ago, PinkFlamingo said:

Dayum, there was no call for that.

I would suppose that mrdeltoid's son has chosen, unwisely, to follow the lead of his friends and acquaintances rather than his father. That's a shame but, it happens. 

He asked the question. Frank responses I'm sure are appreciated.

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16 minutes ago, gonzoliberal said:

I have heard a hundred stories like yours.

Kids are... well, an enigma.  Some come out good, great, rotten, and everything in between.  Some get treated poorly, others quite fairly, yet I've not seen any kind of consistency to their response.  Oh, sure, there are horrible examples at either end of the spectrum, but it is just that; a spectrum.

Mine hit adulthood ten years ago.  One is succeeding beyond expectations, the other, well, just kinda gave up, had a heart attack and died at 27.  Raised identically, as ideally as their mom and dad could manage.  But there is absolutely no accounting for how they turn out.  We do our best and hope, and sometimes fool ourselves into thinking 'we've got this'.  But in the end, our children are individual human beings, with their own lives and karma to live out.  

Love the kid.  Be there for him, and ultimately, let him go.  It's all we can do.

I'm sorry for your family's loss, gonzo. 

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2 hours ago, Ode2Joy said:

Yeah.  Absentee fathers who are no more than sperm donors and a culture that glorifies the attitudes toward women in rap music and refers to them as "HOs" and another word for female dogs is probably just coincidental.  You know they aren't seeing such behavior from many of the athletes who are glorified despite their behavior either.

Oh give me a break.  Of course you'd point the finger at rap music and athletes... gee, I wonder why? :rolleyes:

The truth of the matter is that kids learn to undervalue women from damn near every aspect of life.  Undervaluing women has been baked into the cake for centuries in damn near every society on this planet... but sure, let's put it all on rap music and athletes :rolleyes:

Edited by banner1124

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26 minutes ago, gonzoliberal said:

I have heard a hundred stories like yours.

Kids are... well, an enigma.  Some come out good, great, rotten, and everything in between.  Some get treated poorly, others quite fairly, yet I've not seen any kind of consistency to their response.  Oh, sure, there are horrible examples at either end of the spectrum, but it is just that; a spectrum.

Mine hit adulthood ten years ago.  One is succeeding beyond expectations, the other, well, just kinda gave up, had a heart attack and died at 27.  Raised identically, as ideally as their mom and dad could manage.  But there is absolutely no accounting for how they turn out.  We do our best and hope, and sometimes fool ourselves into thinking 'we've got this'.  But in the end, our children are individual human beings, with their own lives and karma to live out.  

Love the kid.  Be there for him, and ultimately, let him go.  It's all we can do.

 

I'm sorry for your son's passing.  

And that's the thing - five kids; one family; varying levels of successes and failures. Including a drug overdose. 

I've never felt "undervalued" but I've seen women treated like dirt by their kids and partners. That's a character issue. Someone forgot to help build it.

Edited by Sprightly

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15 minutes ago, PinkFlamingo said:

Dayum, there was no call for that.

I would suppose that mrdeltoid's son has chosen, unwisely, to follow the lead of his friends and acquaintances rather than his father. That's a shame but, it happens. 

There us no call for "Riddle me this hst2... How do you explain that?"

He doesn't gave to call me out. He can simply share that he has had a personal experience that is different from the author's conclusions. 

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My father worked his butt off (and never got played with his phone.  I was the 7th of 8 kids but my mom did work at various times during our childhood (she has a masters of Ed from Hopkins).  She did and still does have a great work ethic.  Incredible parents.  I miss my father every day but not half as much as my mother does.    I am sure HST would have hated him for being too manly.  

Of course we all worked a lot.  There was grass to be cut, horses, pigs, goats, and geese to be cared for.  Pool to be cleaned, fences to be mended or moved, always a painting  or plumbing project.  The older kids did a lot of care for us younger ones and we all folded laundry.  

Edited by Bawlmerian

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12 minutes ago, banner1124 said:

Oh give me a break.  Of course you'd point the finger at rap music and athletes... gee, I wonder why? :rolleyes

The truth of the matter is that kids learn to undervalue women from damn near every aspect of life.  Undervaluing women has been baked into the cake for centuries in damn near every society on this planet... but sure, let's put it all on rap music and athletes :rolleyes:

Why?  Because pop culture drives real culture.  And a lot of kids not just or even primarily black kids are watching this stuff.

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4 minutes ago, Bawlmerian said:

Why?  Because pop culture drives real culture.  And a lot of kids not just or even primarily black kids are watching this stuff.

Exactly...pop culture drives real culture in today's world. There's no comparison in how we were shown the world (tv and movies) and how today's kids are shown the world (tv, videos, internet, youtube, fb, instagram...)

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2 hours ago, hst2 said:

Interestingly, it doesn't seem to help that the father is there. In some ways, it may even work against.

And there it is.  HST thinks kids are better off with no man than one that does not share HST’s exact views of gender roles.

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10 minutes ago, Bawlmerian said:

Why?  Because pop culture drives real culture.  And a lot of kids not just or even primarily black kids are watching this stuff.

That completely ignores the fact that women have been undervalued long before pop culture that primarily black kids are watching even existed.

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1 minute ago, banner1124 said:

That completely ignores the fact that women have been undervalued long before pop culture that primarily black kids are watching even existed.

Maybe.  Undervalued, but making progress.  Any cultural differences in that progress within America? 

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Here is a link to the same topic being "debated" Debate.org. Not many comments but a couple of perspectives.

And, by the way, we really are only treated as we allow ourselves to be treated. Don't paint women as helpless in making decisions that impact her life.

Edited by Sprightly

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2 hours ago, hst2 said:

Sure. Far more Black families have single parent households and far more Blacks listen to rap. What does your anti-Black rant have to do with the article? And why do you hide the motive for your comment. Just be honest about it. Or better yet, talk about the article. That's the point of the thread.

You have an "ism" fetish. If it's not racism. it's sexism, or evangelism, or white-ism....or the "ism" of the week. You are one sad puppy. 

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