Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
dshawg1

Stanton to Yankees-Done

56 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, Evil Yoda said:

I agree. Machado will go south to the Marlins or west to LA.

If Miami splurges on Machado, then they should just fold the organization, because the only direction that makes sense right now is to tank. Just crap the bed for a few years and rebuild the organization. Denbo's in place (via the Yankees) to facilitate player development. Their goal (apparently) is to field a team of a bunch of replacement level players and lose 100 games, ala what the Astros did, and the Cubs before them. Once they've got a few years worth of blue-chippers and highly regarded stock...Then let the chips fall where they may. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Rob said:

Manny to Miami. I think that's a real possibility.

The Marlins not only traded Stanton, but they've also traded Dee Gordon, who was making $10 million per year. Marcell Ozuna will probably also be dealt, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the newly-acquire Starlin Castro doesn't make it through a full season with the Fish.

This team is going to be years away from contending and they need to cut payroll right now. I can't see them bidding for another player they ultimately can't afford, nor could I imagine Manny wanting to play there now, hometown or not.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, mdrunning said:

The Marlins not only traded Stanton, but they've also traded Dee Gordon, who was making $10 million per year. Marcell Ozuna will probably also be dealt, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the newly-acquire Starlin Castro doesn't make it through a full season with the Fish.

This team is going to be years away from contending and they need to cut payroll right now. I can't see them bidding for another player they ultimately can't afford, nor could I imagine Manny wanting to play there now, hometown or not.

 

MLB's got to fix it, but tanking is the obvious direction, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, mdrunning said:

The Marlins not only traded Stanton, but they've also traded Dee Gordon, who was making $10 million per year. Marcell Ozuna will probably also be dealt, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the newly-acquire Starlin Castro doesn't make it through a full season with the Fish.

This team is going to be years away from contending and they need to cut payroll right now. I can't see them bidding for another player they ultimately can't afford, nor could I imagine Manny wanting to play there now, hometown or not.

Manny is not going to stay here, because Angelos tends to expect a home town discount and there is no reason in the world for Manny to accept one. Plus, Angelos spent a fortune on Davis and it was largely a waste, which might make him gun shy on big contracts by analogy to the Belle deal, which made him gun shy on players with an injury history (a reasonable view if not carried to extremes).

I don't think Manny will go to New York, not if they have Stanton.  Maybe Miami can't afford him but there are plenty of teams who can, and who are owned by men who value winning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, EnochRoot said:

MLB's got to fix it, but tanking is the obvious direction, right?

Houston did essentially the same thing a few year ago, and look where they wound up. Unless there's some sort of salary floor (along with complete revenue sharing), then I think this is the business model more teams are going to be following. Suck Really Bad to Become Really Good.

And it isn't as if MLB hasn't been down this road before with the Marlins. They did it after the 1997 championship and laid the foundation for another Series winner. Then they did it again and went absolutely nowhere. It's definitely tanking, but it's also the stark economic realities of an ownership group which probably overpaid for the franchise to begin and didn't have the money to keep the team intact. The thing is, MLB approved the sale of the Marlins to Jeter & Co., which also raises some questions. Jeter reportedly put up $25 million of his own money, but he's also being paid $5 million per year as the team's CEO, which is rather unusual.

The question is, why did the other owners approve of this arrangement? We've seen this before with the Dodgers and Frank McCourt (ah, the wonders of having an anti-trust exemption). I don't know what other bidders were involved, but I wonder if any were better-heeled than Jeter's group. Since MLB approved the sale, I don't think they have any other recourse than to approve any and all trades the Marlins may make. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Evil Yoda said:

Manny is not going to stay here, because Angelos tends to expect a home town discount and there is no reason in the world for Manny to accept one. Plus, Angelos spent a fortune on Davis and it was largely a waste, which might make him gun shy on big contracts by analogy to the Belle deal, which made him gun shy on players with an injury history (a reasonable view if not carried to extremes).

I don't think Manny will go to New York, not if they have Stanton.  Maybe Miami can't afford him but there are plenty of teams who can, and who are owned by men who value winning.

I never said Manny was going to stay here, and in fact, I'd be shocked if he did. In fact, it's probably in the best interests of both parties if he didn't. Even if the Orioles did come up with the cash (and I don't think even Angelos is stubborn enough to think that Manny is going to accept a team-friendly deal at this stage), what would they have really accomplished? Signing Manny doesn't make them better, only much more expensive.

Like the Marlins with Stanton--who never made the playoffs during his time there, and averaged about 12 fans per game--the Orioles aren't suddenly going to become a box-office smash just because they paid Manny $300 to $400 million. Unless starting pitching suddenly drops from the sky, they'll be with him what they'd likely be without him--a 70 to 75-win team with no chance of catching the Red Sox or Yankees.

I don't think it's because Angelos doesn't want to win--you don't amass that type of wealth without being uber-competitive--but the problem is his micro-managing puts the franchise in a constant state of paralysis when they need to be as pro-active as possible. I heard the other night on the radio that there "talks" in the Oriole front office regarding whether or not to offer Manny an extension. If that's true, then that's truly an alarming state of affairs since that ship sailed a long time ago. Thing is, Angelos always seems to trust his own judgement more than the people he pays to be decision-makers. Such is often the way, unfortunately, with self-made billionaires. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, mdrunning said:

I never said Manny was going to stay here, and in fact, I'd be shocked if he did. In fact, it's probably in the best interests of both parties if he didn't. Even if the Orioles did come up with the cash (and I don't think even Angelos is stubborn enough to think that Manny is going to accept a team-friendly deal at this stage), what would they have really accomplished? Signing Manny doesn't make them better, only much more expensive.

Like the Marlins with Stanton--who never made the playoffs during his time there, and averaged about 12 fans per game--the Orioles aren't suddenly going to become a box-office smash just because they paid Manny $300 to $400 million. Unless starting pitching suddenly drops from the sky, they'll be with him what they'd likely be without him--a 70 to 75-win team with no chance of catching the Red Sox or Yankees.

I don't think it's because Angelos doesn't want to win--you don't amass that type of wealth without being uber-competitive--but the problem is his micro-managing puts the franchise in a constant state of paralysis when they need to be as pro-active as possible. I heard the other night on the radio that there "talks" in the Oriole front office regarding whether or not to offer Manny an extension. If that's true, then that's truly an alarming state of affairs since that ship sailed a long time ago. Thing is, Angelos always seems to trust his own judgement more than the people he pays to be decision-makers. Such is often the way, unfortunately, with self-made billionaires. 

You're probably right about the wisdom of bringing him back. We fans can enjoy him for one more year.

I'm sure Angelos is very competitive in the legal arena. The evidence available from observation is that he is indifferent to whether the Orioles win or not. He does not fix the problems in scouting or the farm system. He won't spend on pitching. Until Buck got there all the fans had to hope for was a winning season. He has plenty to spend, thanks to MASN, and could compete fiscally with the Red Sox at least. Maybe not the Yankees. But if he doesn't want to spend on free agents he at least ought to build the best farm system and scouting networks in baseball, instead of what he has, which according to SI is usually bottom third or so.

Supposedly, there have been a few instances where Angelos was correct and his "baseball experts" were wrong, revealed in hindsight. That kind of thing can make someone conclude they know best. What it probably actually means is that he made a hiring mistake and needs to replace the relevant "expert".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I could see Boston or the Dodgers being buyers on Machado. Not sure where else he could end up...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, soulflower said:

I could see Boston or the Dodgers being buyers on Machado. Not sure where else he could end up...

Both the Cardinals and Phillies should have plenty of cash on hand for free agency when the time comes. I doubt, however, if the Phillies would want to gut their farm system right now in order to trade for Machado.

Edited by mdrunning

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, EnochRoot said:

MLB's got to fix it, but tanking is the obvious direction, right?

Jeter will make Miami fans miss Loria. Stanton hit a lot of home runs in the pitching tough NL, in the AL East he'll hit 25 just against the O's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/9/2017 at 9:34 AM, bleedingorangeandblack said:

Cant wait for the Os need to start doing something post

It's too soon. The big name free agents have to come off the board first. Then the mid tier guys, then DD can get to work. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, mdrunning said:

Both the Cardinals and Phillies should have plenty of cash on hand for free agency when the time comes. I doubt, however, if the Phillies would want to gut their farm system right now in order to trade for Machado.

At this point there's no reason to give up prospects for Machado. That is Angelos' or Duquette's or Showalter's colossal blunder. Just wait out '18 and pay for him.

Edited by Evil Yoda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Evil Yoda said:

At this point there's no reason to give up prospects for Machado. That is Angelos' or Duquette's or Showalter's colossal blunder. Just wait out '18 and pay for him.

Agreed. If there was ever a time for Angelos to pay out some money, it should be to keep him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, bmore_ken said:

Agreed. If there was ever a time for Angelos to pay out some money, it should be to keep him.

More than likely they will do something like their usual, which is to make an offer they're sure won't be accepted so they can pretend they tried. Another issue is that both Showalter's and Duquette's contracts end at the end of the 2018 season, so the team will need to either extend them, or find their successors in time to negotiate with Manny.

It's possible he will return, but I put the odds at around 10%. And maybe they really can't afford him, but they ought to know that, and should have shopped him for prospects before this. Of course, that brings us back to the bad scouting and development, which makes finding and growing prospects a haphazard business for this team.

I must reiterate that I believe this organization will continue to flail about until Angelos is out of the picture (sells or dies). There's no reason to be optimistic that his sons, doubtless trained by him, will run it any better than he has.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless the O's sign Darvish and Arrieta (!!)  they might as well punt 2018.  

They could give up 60 homers to the Yankees alone next season.

Anaheim looks like they've put themselves in a good position for the second WC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Evil Yoda said:

At this point there's no reason to give up prospects for Machado. That is Angelos' or Duquette's or Showalter's colossal blunder. Just wait out '18 and pay for him.

The return might not be quite as good, but there's certainly ample reason to offer Machado around as a one-year rental if he's destined to walk after the season. That's how the Orioles got Tillman and Adam Jones from the Mariners, after all. And there still would be a chance to trade him at the deadline should the Orioles fall out of contention, which appears likely at this point.

The worst thing to do would be. . .nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, johnpolitics said:

Jeter will make Miami fans miss Loria. Stanton hit a lot of home runs in the pitching tough NL, in the AL East he'll hit 25 just against the O's.

In fairness to Jeter, the situation he bought into wasn't really his doing.

According to Cots, the $1.2 billion sale price was actually $800 million in cash and $400 million in assumed or restructured debt. Whoever bought the club was reportedly looking at annual operating losses between $150 to $200 million the next several years because the franchise is way behind in such revenue-creating streams such as attendance, sponsorships, and a local television contract. 

The Stanton deal had to happen because the contract was so back-loaded. They had to unload it before the pigeons came home to roost. For the first three years, Stanton was paid a modest $30 million. Beginning in 2018, however, the payments balloon to $25, $26, and $26 million, respectively, until 2020 when Stanton can decide whether or not to exercise his opt-out clause. No wonder Loria was looking to get the hell out.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Acquiring Stanton is no small act. But I wonder how much of a factor he'll be. I didn't see any NY games last year, but my impression was that offense wasn't a problem. Wasn't inconsistent pitching their biggest issue?

The reality is, TB is about to go into rebuild mode, they're losing Cobb and shopping Archer, Longoria, Colome and Odorizzi. So there's 16 gimme games for NY and Bos. Tor is twisting in the wind. And the O's won't do anything to improve upon their last place finish. All things considered, we're back to the days when NY and Bos will dominate the division, because the other 3 teams are in "also ran" mode. 

Stanton or no Stanton, I don't see myself seeking out lesser known ways to watch O's games in 2018. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, mdrunning said:

In fairness to Jeter, the situation he bought into wasn't really his doing.

According to Cots, the $1.2 billion sale price was actually $800 million in cash and $400 million in assumed or restructured debt. Whoever bought the club was reportedly looking at annual operating losses between $150 to $200 million the next several years because the franchise is way behind in such revenue-creating streams such as attendance, sponsorships, and a local television contract. 

The Stanton deal had to happen because the contract was so back-loaded. They had to unload it before the pigeons came home to roost. For the first three years, Stanton was paid a modest $30 million. Beginning in 2018, however, the payments balloon to $25, $26, and $26 million, respectively, until 2020 when Stanton can decide whether or not to exercise his opt-out clause. No wonder Loria was looking to get the hell out.

A Baseball Disgrace

Quote

...Sherman has experience doing just that to beloved privately owned civic institutions, when a little more than a decade ago, he gutted the Knight Ridder newspaper company, leaving dozens of the country’s most prestigious news organizations—including the Miami Herald—with skeleton staffs and shoestring budgets. The baseball world should have known better than to greet Sherman’s purchase of the team as a relief.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, weird-O said:

Acquiring Stanton is no small act. But I wonder how much of a factor he'll be. I didn't see any NY games last year, but my impression was that offense wasn't a problem. Wasn't inconsistent pitching their biggest issue?

The reality is, TB is about to go into rebuild mode, they're losing Cobb and shopping Archer, Longoria, Colome and Odorizzi. So there's 16 gimme games for NY and Bos. Tor is twisting in the wind. And the O's won't do anything to improve upon their last place finish. All things considered, we're back to the days when NY and Bos will dominate the division, because the other 3 teams are in "also ran" mode. 

Stanton or no Stanton, I don't see myself seeking out lesser known ways to watch O's games in 2018. 

Injuries and Bullpen issues in the middle of the season lost them the division. I’m sure they would’ve won the Division if not for the mid-season slump.

But they were very good all around in the playoffs because most of the team was healthy by September 

Edited by soulflower

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/9/2017 at 9:47 PM, mdrunning said:

I don't think it's because Angelos doesn't want to win--you don't amass that type of wealth without being uber-competitive

The thing is, words like "win" and "competitive" have multiple meanings. When we fans use those words, we're mostly talking about what happens on the field. The Angelos group gauges those words in $$$$. They're winning like crazy, because money rolls in so fast, they can't keep up with counting it. 

Hence, my unwavering appreciation for what DD has accomplished in his time here. He has managed to give us a team that has been competitive between the white lines, in spite of the meddling that you mentioned.

* This next part in a preemptive response to those who will be very quick and excited about pointing out that DD inherited most of the team that has been winning, since he took over.
I know AM left a good foundation, but he didn't leave behind a playoff caliber team. AM was never, ever going to push the agenda of winning now. If allowed, he would have spent another decade losing games, amassing top 10 over all picks, while also blundering most of those top 10 picks, as he did with the ones he had to work with. DD made this team a post season contender. Which GM did most of the heavy lifting, is a topic for debate. But the thing that is undeniable is, DD decided to go for it, the day he was hired. No DD = no post season games in Baltimore.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, ivanbalt said:

So another owner rolls into Miami to bleed them dry.  :rolleyes:

This one is on MLB for allowing him in to own a team in the first place. 

Edit: I'm referring to Bruce Sherman, not the figurehead, Derek Jeter.

Edited by EnochRoot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, EnochRoot said:

This one is on MLB for allowing him in to own a team in the first place. 

Edit: I'm referring to Bruce Sherman, not the figurehead, Derek Jeter.

Loria was also on MLB. That whole swap of the Expos, Marlins, Expos to DC was all the work of the used car salesman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, mdrunning said:

The return might not be quite as good, but there's certainly ample reason to offer Machado around as a one-year rental if he's destined to walk after the season. That's how the Orioles got Tillman and Adam Jones from the Mariners, after all. And there still would be a chance to trade him at the deadline should the Orioles fall out of contention, which appears likely at this point.

The worst thing to do would be. . .nothing.

I meant "no reason for other teams to give up prospects" when Machado is so close to free agency. The blunder I alluded to is not moving him when they could have got a lot of prospects for him. Maybe there will be a team out there who believes it is a Manny Machado away from a World Series run and is willing to deal for that.

But that raises the question of whether the Orioles subpar scouting department will have worthwhile information on prospects, whether their subpar minor league development can do anything with them, and whether Angelos can be talked into a deal. Their best bet is probably to go for a smaller number of prospects who are closer to ready, to minimize the chance that poor scouting and poor development will sabotage the deal.

Angelos probably thinks they can re-sign him, and he's probably (correctly) concluded that doing so is a good idea from a marketing perspective. As that appears to be how he makes his decisions, I suspect Duquette will not be permitted to shop him. Even if Angelos grants him that opportunity, Buck will nix it.

I predict Manny will leave and the Orioles will get only a sandwich pick.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0