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Manny

John Harbaugh

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7 hours ago, ivanbalt said:

At some point Harbaugh needs to be held accountable for the regular inconsistent play. 

He seems unwilling or lacks the confidence to overrule his weak coordinators. He allows them to employ the same failed strategies week in and week out.

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On 1/2/2018 at 5:04 PM, Rob said:

Last 5 years for Harbaugh and the Ravens:

40 Wins

40 Losses

No Playoffs in 4 of 5 Years

Weak. Until they can find a way to close out games this will continue. 

Offensive can never put the nail in the coffin and almost always gives the ball back to other team with time to score. 

And the defense let’s the opposing team march right down the field and score to end the game. It’s shocking how often this happens to the Ravens. Sick of it. 

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1 hour ago, Manny said:

He seems unwilling or lacks the confidence to overrule his weak coordinators. He allows them to employ the same failed strategies week in and week out.

I think it's Harbaugh sense of loyalty to his coordinators- if he thinks enough of them to give them the job, he rarely interferes. But it's loyalty to a fault and it's ultimately hurting the team and effecting the outcome of games.

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16 hours ago, Slidemaster said:

Justin Forsett was absolutely a stud the year he went off.  It didn't last, but for that year they had a stud, yes.

Kubiak.

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14 hours ago, mikemor1 said:

Collins looks good, by Raven's standards, but he is no Todd Gurley or Alvin Kamara for that matter.

I wouldn't hang the whole  future success of the offense on Collins-look at Forsett-he had that one good year and then tanked.

Forsett was old when he got here and benefited from a Kubiak offense. When Kubs left, Forsett turned into a pumpkin again. Collins is in his second year and barely played last year. Big difference.

You look at Collins intangibles, his speed, his ability to break tackles and get YAC and he can be a RB1 in the NFL. He looked the part this year.

 

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If we miss the playoffs in 2018, Harbaugh should be fired undoubtedly and if he isn't there should be a revolt at M&T.

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7 hours ago, Pickle20 said:

Kubiak.

Who ironically was forced on Harbaugh by ownership. I think over meddling is bad but, in the case of Kubiak, was the right move. I suspect ownership is pursuing Pagano. I doubt Harbs wants someone of that caliber back around. I really want Pagano.

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1 hour ago, Manny said:

Who ironically was forced on Harbaugh by ownership. I think over meddling is bad but, in the case of Kubiak, was the right move. I suspect ownership is pursuing Pagano. I doubt Harbs wants someone of that caliber back around. I really want Pagano.

Not too sure about Pagano. He had Ray & Ed his only year here as DC. His D's in Indy have not been great.

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1 hour ago, stevez51 said:

Not too sure about Pagano. He had Ray & Ed his only year here as DC. His D's in Indy have not been great.

An aging Ed and Ray. Unlike Mattison before him and Pees after him,Pagano believed in regularly blitzing the QB. Pops and Dean loved them some zone.

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16 hours ago, Pickle20 said:

If we miss the playoffs in 2018, Harbaugh should be fired undoubtedly and if he isn't there should be a revolt at M&T.

Bisciotti has said on multiple occasions that he admires the Steeler organization and would like to model the Ravens after them. One thing teams such as the Steelers don't do is fire coaches coming off of winning seasons, which Harbaugh, although it was only 9-7, did have in 2017.

To everyone and anyone clamoring (and to be clear, I'm not singling you out) for sweeping changes, it would likely take a complete collapse such as what happened with the Giants this season. A new regime comes in and immediately starts cleaning house. That isn't what happened with the Ravens this past season, so an average season will give a coach and a GM with past pedigree another bite at the apple. Trouble is, mediocrity tends to recycle itself well.
 

 

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Tomlin also had a couple of 8-8 (back-to-back) and a 9-7 season where he missed the playoffs.  They even lost some games to the Browns as I recall. Their fanbase went bananas as well (I know plenty of Steeler fans) and wanted the entire organization fired top to bottom because in there opinion there was no way they could rise up to the level of the Ravens who had surpassed the Steelers talent wise (Ravens won SB one of those years), and would dominate the division for the forseeable future. When they next made the playoffs and lost to the Ravens in the opening round in 2014 - armageddon - they wanted the entire coaching staff and front office blown up. Seriously.

Just like drop-offs, turnarounds can happen pretty quickly.  Take the Patriots at the top end, and the Browns and Jets at the bottom end out of the AFC the equation -  and there really is not a lot of space between the rest of the franchises in the AFC in my opinion.

 

 

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On 1/4/2018 at 4:31 PM, Manny said:

Who ironically was forced on Harbaugh by ownership. I think over meddling is bad but, in the case of Kubiak, was the right move. I suspect ownership is pursuing Pagano. I doubt Harbs wants someone of that caliber back around. I really want Pagano.

Are you just making this up or is this fact? This is the first I heard that Harbaugh did not want Kubiak as his offensive coordinator. It makes me wonder why Harbaugh did not want Kubiak 

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18 hours ago, RestonRaven said:

Tomlin also had a couple of 8-8 (back-to-back) and a 9-7 season where he missed the playoffs.  They even lost some games to the Browns as I recall. Their fanbase went bananas as well (I know plenty of Steeler fans) and wanted the entire organization fired top to bottom because in there opinion there was no way they could rise up to the level of the Ravens who had surpassed the Steelers talent wise (Ravens won SB one of those years), and would dominate the division for the forseeable future. When they next made the playoffs and lost to the Ravens in the opening round in 2014 - armageddon - they wanted the entire coaching staff and front office blown up. Seriously.

Just like drop-offs, turnarounds can happen pretty quickly.  Take the Patriots at the top end, and the Browns and Jets at the bottom end out of the AFC the equation -  and there really is not a lot of space between the rest of the franchises in the AFC in my opinion.

 

 

Yea, but they also maintained their identity and held the course .....

Harbaugh bounces from offensive and defensive schemes and coordinators while providing cute soundbites like the mighty men and ravens football without any continuity the past 5 years ....

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1 hour ago, RavingManiac said:

Are you just making this up or is this fact? This is the first I heard that Harbaugh did not want Kubiak as his offensive coordinator. It makes me wonder why Harbaugh did not want Kubiak 

It was well documented that Harbaugh preferred Jim Hostler.

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On 1/5/2018 at 2:14 AM, mdrunning said:

Bisciotti has said on multiple occasions that he admires the Steeler organization and would like to model the Ravens after them. One thing teams such as the Steelers don't do is fire coaches coming off of winning seasons, which Harbaugh, although it was only 9-7, did have in 2017.

To everyone and anyone clamoring (and to be clear, I'm not singling you out) for sweeping changes, it would likely take a complete collapse such as what happened with the Giants this season. A new regime comes in and immediately starts cleaning house. That isn't what happened with the Ravens this past season, so an average season will give a coach and a GM with past pedigree another bite at the apple. Trouble is, mediocrity tends to recycle itself well.
 

 

Totally agree with all of this.

I'll add in a few other things too, though they may not be popular...

This season was one of the strangest of all.  Not just for the Ravens, but league-wide.  However, many fans have been very hypocritical.  They want sweeping changes, "blow it up", "fire everyone", the mantra all over the internet rings hollow to me.  They decry the lack of effort in the Cincy game, and I agree - there WAS a lack of effort, especially in the first half.  What I saw in the second half was the offense, in particular, Flacco, put the rest of team on it's back and took a lead, only to have the defense completely blow it, despite having the Bengals backed up at the 10 yard line, and later, nullifying a game ending interception with an idiotic penalty, and later giving up a 4th and 12 for a 49 yard TD.  Now we can blame the coaching for not having the team ready, but let's hold on a minute, ok?  If you were a Ravens player, and you saw what I saw - a half empty stadium - on a game that meant everything, just how much effort would you be putting forth?  If you're a fan who didn't show for the game, and you're going to criticize the effort by the players, maybe you should look in the mirror. 

I do think though, that this loss was very devastating to the organization and to Harbaugh.  Had they won, his legacy would have been cemented as a coach that got his team to the playoffs 7 out of 10 years, and he'd probably have been extended again.  He went from that to being squarely on the hot seat, all by one game, one play, in fact. 

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22 hours ago, RestonRaven said:

Tomlin also had a couple of 8-8 (back-to-back) and a 9-7 season where he missed the playoffs.  They even lost some games to the Browns as I recall. Their fanbase went bananas as well (I know plenty of Steeler fans) and wanted the entire organization fired top to bottom because in there opinion there was no way they could rise up to the level of the Ravens who had surpassed the Steelers talent wise (Ravens won SB one of those years), and would dominate the division for the forseeable future. When they next made the playoffs and lost to the Ravens in the opening round in 2014 - armageddon - they wanted the entire coaching staff and front office blown up. Seriously.

Just like drop-offs, turnarounds can happen pretty quickly.  Take the Patriots at the top end, and the Browns and Jets at the bottom end out of the AFC the equation -  and there really is not a lot of space between the rest of the franchises in the AFC in my opinion.

 

 

I agree with this 100%

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2 hours ago, alienrace said:

... They decry the lack of effort in the Cincy game, and I agree - there WAS a lack of effort, especially in the first half.  ...  Now we can blame the coaching for not having the team ready... 

I do think though, that this loss was very devastating to the organization and to Harbaugh...

It did look like a lack of effort, and I hear fans accusing Flacco and the team of not caring, a notion I reject. They sure seem to lack focus, especially early in games against bad teams. As stunning as the winning TD was, the game was really lost in the first half. They came out like zombies. Outside of bringing in a psychologist or a guru or something, I think the main thing they need to work on is Flacco hitting receivers in stride and receivers catching the damn ball. Poor throws that slow the runner and drops are drive killers. Hopefully having a healthy pre-season will help this.

Perhaps this devastating loss can light a fire. Do I recall correctly that they won the Super Bowl the year after Lee Evans dropped his pass? I don't agree at all that house needs to be cleaned, and the promotion of Roman and hiring of QB coach Urban seem like good moves. Keeping these players healthy is key.

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51 minutes ago, Steveg85321 said:

It did look like a lack of effort, and I hear fans accusing Flacco and the team of not caring, a notion I reject. They sure seem to lack focus, especially early in games against bad teams. As stunning as the winning TD was, the game was really lost in the first half. They came out like zombies. Outside of bringing in a psychologist or a guru or something, I think the main thing they need to work on is Flacco hitting receivers in stride and receivers catching the damn ball. Poor throws that slow the runner and drops are drive killers. Hopefully having a healthy pre-season will help this.

Perhaps this devastating loss can light a fire. Do I recall correctly that they won the Super Bowl the year after Lee Evans dropped his pass? I don't agree at all that house needs to be cleaned, and the promotion of Roman and hiring of QB coach Urban seem like good moves. Keeping these players healthy is key.

Correct. In my opinion the 2011 team was the best overall team this decade.  They went into New England and lost in the infamous Lee Evans/Billy Cundiff game.  Cameron was OC and Pagano DC as I recall.  The 2012 team went back the very next year, after beating Denver in double OT, and pretty much dominated them in Foxboro to win the AFC Championship with Caldwell as OC and Pees as DC.  Tremendous resilience by the organization to pull that off after such a heartbreaking loss the year before.

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Manny said:

It was well documented that Harbaugh preferred Jim Hostler.

Hostler was at the top of the list - then Kubiak was FIRED by the Texans during the search process.  He fell into the organization's lap.  He went over to Harbaugh's house for dinner when he said he was interested, and it closed the deal.  The idea that he was somehow forced on Harbaugh is pure conjecture started by Mike Preston.

Edited by RestonRaven

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13 minutes ago, RestonRaven said:

Hostler was at the top of the list - then Kubiak was FIRED by the Texans during the search process.  He fell into the organization's lap.  He went over to Harbaugh's house for dinner when he said he was interested, and it closed the deal.  The idea that he was somehow forced on Harbaugh is pure conjecture started by Mike Preston.

There is so much stuff on here that people put out as fact when it couldn’t be further from the truth. Thanks for the facts

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Posted (edited)

8 hours ago, Eastside Terp said:

Yea, but they also maintained their identity and held the course .....

Harbaugh bounces from offensive and defensive schemes and coordinators while providing cute soundbites like the mighty men and ravens football without any continuity the past 5 years ....

Not sure I understand that comment.  Actually, everyone else on the internet seems to be up in arms over the fact that the organization maintains continuity. The only coordinators he let go over this decade were Trestman and Cameron.  Caldwell left to take over HC at Detriot, Pagano left to take over the Colts and Pees has now retired. Steelers have turned over coordinators during that time as well (e.g. -  LeBeau and Bruce Arians). Steelers fans hate Todd Haley by the way - most I know don't think he has adequately lit up scoring given the talent they have. If they lose first round, I have a feeling he may be out.

As far as schemes - again not sure that Harbaugh  "bounces" from scheme to scheme as you indicate.  Base defense has generally been 3-4 first with Haloti and now Brandon at NT. Offensive scheme has also generally been run oriented with a feature back. It's been tough some seasons, but they have neve rreally had the personnel to pull off a high-octane pass first base offense the last several years. The general complaint has actually been the opposite - it is vanilla and predictable with not much change over the years.

Edited by RestonRaven

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I think the whole problem boils down to Flacco on offense. He is so inconsistent and just disappears in games. You can’t blame the coaching staff for that. There is nothing you can scheme to put points on the board when the quarterback is just downright awful. Take the Cincinnati game for instance. Was it horrible play calling the reason that the offense was so pathetic the first half or was it Flacco disappearing again? If it was horrible play calling then why did Flacco greatly improve the second half? It was very evident that the front office knew where the problem lies when they called out Flacco at the end of last season. “Flacco has to play better”. 

We tend to forget that Flacco was inconsistent with Kubiak as well. I remember the last game against the Browns when Kubiak was the offensive coordinator. Flacco did absolutely nothing for 3.5 quarters and with like 6 minutes to go, he threw for two touchdowns to get the victory. Now was that bad play calling for 3.5 quarters by Kubiak or did Flacco finally get his head out of his you know what and start playing? If I remember correctly, we needed that win to get into the playoffs. 

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13 minutes ago, RavingManiac said:

I think the whole problem boils down to Flacco on offense. He is so inconsistent and just disappears in games. You can’t blame the coaching staff for that. There is nothing you can scheme to put points on the board when the quarterback is just downright awful. Take the Cincinnati game for instance. Was it horrible play calling the reason that the offense was so pathetic the first half or was it Flacco disappearing again? If it was horrible play calling then why did Flacco greatly improve the second half? It was very evident that the front office knew where the problem lies when they called out Flacco at the end of last season. “Flacco has to play better”. 

We tend to forget that Flacco was inconsistent with Kubiak as well. I remember the last game against the Browns when Kubiak was the offensive coordinator. Flacco did absolutely nothing for 3.5 quarters and with like 6 minutes to go, he threw for two touchdowns to get the victory. Now was that bad play calling for 3.5 quarters by Kubiak or did Flacco finally get his head out of his you know what and start playing? If I remember correctly, we needed that win to get into the playoffs. 

Joe is inconsistent.  I have learned to live with it. He is probably a top 12-15 QB even though numbers don't show it.  He does have some intangibles and when he is on - he's on. When he is off it - is pretty bad. What's interesting with him is that you can see that swing from quarter to quarter or even series to series.  Nothing new.  He played a great game in Heinz Field when they lost 39-38. He can roll into Foxboro and win - nothing phases him.  "Why can't he just be consistent -- like Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady!!!!!"  If you can figure out the answer to that one I think there are at least 25 NFL teams that would love to know the answer.  I just watched Alex Smith crap the bed in home playoff game for KC (as an aside - KC also showed today they were beatable - and it would have been terrific to see the Ravens get the crack at them that the Titans got).

I don't think Joe  has been fully healthy either.  I think expecting him to put up big numbers coming of the ACL/MCL last year was a tall order.  He still got them to within a game of the playoffs. Once again in Heinz - he drove the length of the field at the end of the 4th quarter - and hit Kyle Juice for what should have been winning TD to clinch the division.  Defense then let the Steelers drive down and win it with Antonio Brown extension.  This year I think that back injury was hampering him - post bye he looked better - and again - drove them to what should have been the game winner to put them in the playoffs - only to have the defense collapse on an inconceivable 4th & 12. NET: Joe performed well enough in the final crucial drives to have put the Ravens in the playoffs.  The defense let them down in back-to-back years.

As such, I would disagree with your premise that the "whole problem boils down to Flacco."  Would the Ravens be better if he played like Brady, Ben or Rodgers week in and out.  Sure - any team would - but he is simply never going to be in that class and those guys are not available to QB the Ravens. He has three years of good performance left in my estimation - his drop off is probably going to be really fast and steep.  He is just not accurate enough to play into his late 30's.  Enjoy the ride with Joe, I think he has one more run left in him, and start succession planning now for 2021.  That's my view from the peanut gallery. Cheers!

 

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13 minutes ago, RestonRaven said:

Joe is inconsistent.  I have learned to live with it. He is probably a top 12-15 QB even though numbers don't show it.  He does have some intangibles and when he is on - he's on. When he is off it - is pretty bad. What's interesting with him is that you can see that swing from quarter to quarter or even series to series.  Nothing new.  He played a great game in Heinz Field when they lost 39-38. He can roll into Foxboro and win - nothing phases him.  "Why can't he just be consistent -- like Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady!!!!!"  If you can figure out the answer to that one I think there are at least 25 NFL teams that would love to know the answer.  I just watched Alex Smith crap the bed in home playoff game for KC (as an aside - KC also showed today they were beatable - and it would have been terrific to see the Ravens get the crack at them that the Titans got).

I don't think Joe  has been fully healthy either.  I think expecting him to put up big numbers coming of the ACL/MCL last year was a tall order.  He still got them to within a game of the playoffs. Once again in Heinz - he drove the length of the field at the end of the 4th quarter - and hit Kyle Juice for what should have been winning TD to clinch the division.  Defense then let the Steelers drive down and win it with Antonio Brown extension.  This year I think that back injury was hampering him - post bye he looked better - and again - drove them to what should have been the game winner to put them in the playoffs - only to have the defense collapse on an inconceivable 4th & 12. NET: Joe performed well enough in the final crucial drives to have put the Ravens in the playoffs.  The defense let them down in back-to-back years.

As such, I would disagree with your premise that the "whole problem boils down to Flacco."  Would the Ravens be better if he played like Brady, Ben or Rodgers week in and out.  Sure - any team would - but he is simply never going to be in that class and those guys are not available to QB the Ravens. He has three years of good performance left in my estimation - his drop off is probably going to be really fast and steep.  He is just not accurate enough to play into his late 30's.  Enjoy the ride with Joe, I think he has one more run left in him, and start succession planning now for 2021.  That's my view from the peanut gallery. Cheers!

 

The man does play big in big time games. I expect him to play his best games against Pittsburgh in Pittsburgh. I expect him to play terrible in week 8 no matter who they play against. The man is money come playoff time which is what you want but the problem is getting there. I think next year is Flacco’s last year here. Harbaugh mentioned drafting a quarterback and then I think they just hired a quarterback coach from the Bengals and that makes me wonder if that is to groom the new quarterback...not Flacco. That is just speculation but isn’t he making like 24 million dollars? He just isn’t worth that kind of money. I read somewhere the Ravens can get out of that contract next year without too much of a hit. 

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Posted (edited)

39 minutes ago, RestonRaven said:

The defense let them down in back-to-back years.

 

I like your analysis resto- but I just don't buy this as the reason the team fails to make the playoffs last couple years. Sure the Defense should've held. But at same time, if Joe was consistent or played better (he is the absolute most important player who determines the fate of the team) the Defense probably wouldn't need to bear the responsibility to seal these game. Even if all he did was protect the football slightly better over the course of the season- we win more games in both seasons and don't need to rely on last minute defensive stands in win or die games to make the playoffs. He's the QB. He's inconsistent and average- and so the team is inconsistent and average imo.

Edited by poefolks

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