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gonzoliberal

How America is Transforming Islam

175 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, FormerlySouthSide said:

If you are basing everything on the NOI, then you are talking about very small segment of the world's Muslims, and still a small segment of American Muslims.  Using the NOI as your example of "real" Muslims is like using, I don't know...Jehovah's Witnesses to as examples of "real" Christians.

And no, I don't believe that Fard Muhammad is the Madhi.  If that is your belief or any one elses, then so be it.

I don't know if my Imam would perform a gay marriage.  But the congregation I belong to is fairly "liberal" or "progressive".  Not being gay or single, I never asked.

You are hung up on what "real" Muslims are.  There are no "real" Muslims and there are no "real" Christians.  Very few individuals practice their faith to the letter.  So you can't make generalizations on how any one of any faith will view a given social issues.

Why are you fixated on the NOI, any way?

 

Because they are American Muslims or call themselves Muslim.  I seriously doubt that your Imam would perform a gay marriage but you should know whether or not your congregation recognizes and would perform same sex marriages or not.

You might not come out and say it, but your comment about the Madhi demonstrates that you likely see your sect of Islam as being correct that Muhammad is the one and only final prophet of Allah and that's what the vast majority of Muslims believe. 

I don't see Islam as being an adaptive religion like Christianity, especially when it comes to a concept like separation of church and state.  Yes, many Christians - including the kook Judge Moore - do not really believe in that either.  That's why he was removed from the bench not once, but twice.

 

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4 minutes ago, Ode2Joy said:

I am very tolerant of others who hold different religious views than mine.  Pointing out facts and where someone is mistaken doesn't make a person intolerant.  It's called being knowledgeable.  

The whole brouhaha over whether or not Muslims perform same sex marriages began when someone pointed to a sect that called itself Islamic when it was really an outlier and not representative of Islam at all.   

Your first post on this thread: "Let me know when being young and Muslim in the U.S. means the Muslim community here will become accepting of same sex marriage and allow female clergy."

Why do you hold U.S. Muslims to a higher standard than U.S. Christians?

 

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43 minutes ago, FormerlySouthSide said:

EDIT: I can't speak for every person who identifies as "Muslim".  So if there is a Muslim that does believe in a "son of God", then that is what that individual believes.  But I can safely say that he is in the minority among those who identify as "Muslim".  It is a big tent.

 

Let me make it very easy for you:

Can a Muslim - a REAL Muslim and not just someone who labels himself as a Muslim for some reason - believe that Jesus is God and at the same time believe that Allah alone is God?

"Muslim" is a religious belief system, not an ethnic group.

 

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2 minutes ago, Ode2Joy said:

Because they are American Muslims or call themselves Muslim.  I seriously doubt that your Imam would perform a gay marriage but you should know whether or not your congregation recognizes and would perform same sex marriages or not.

You might not come out and say it, but your comment about the Madhi demonstrates that you likely see your sect of Islam as being correct that Muhammad is the one and only final prophet of Allah and that's what the vast majority of Muslims believe. 

I don't see Islam as being an adaptive religion like Christianity, especially when it comes to a concept like separation of church and state.  Yes, many Christians - including the kook Judge Moore - do not really believe in that either.  That's why he was removed from the bench not once, but twice.

 

If you want a real comparison, then maybe compare the Sunni v. Shia Muslims.  If the NOI is your go-to, then good luck randomly finding a Muslim that believes  as the NOI does.  The NOI also believes that the white man is the devil.  I'd happily disagree with the NOI on that too.

And no where in in orthodox Islam does it say that Muhammad is the only prophet.  In Islamic belief, he is the last Prophet, therefore his relevance.  Now if you Google hard enough, I'm sure will find some guy who says different.  But it still isn't mainstream.

You can believe what you want.  But Muslims live under the separation of church and state every day.  As most other Americans, we prefer it.  God forbid someone like Mike Pence be allowed to legislate his version of Christianity.

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1 minute ago, FatBoy said:

Your first post on this thread: "Let me know when being young and Muslim in the U.S. means the Muslim community here will become accepting of same sex marriage and allow female clergy."

Why do you hold U.S. Muslims to a higher standard than U.S. Christians?

 

I'm not.  I'm correctly pointing out that there are many who belong to various Christian denominations who perform and accept same sex marriage and allow female clergy even if they all don't.

And then I pointed out that I think it is unlikely that U.S. Muslims are going to start an equally large number of Islamic groups who perform same sex marriage and make female Imams a regular part of their Islamic beliefs.

They have little choice but to acknowledge same sex marriage under U.S. law, but U.S. laws are not the same thing as Islamic or Catholic beliefs which prohibit it even though it's allowed under U.S. law.

You can continue to pretend otherwise but your basic knowledge of Islam seems even less than your basic knowledge of core Christian beliefs, like claiming that Jesus is a prophet and not God.

 

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1 minute ago, FormerlySouthSide said:

If you want a real comparison, then maybe compare the Sunni v. Shia Muslims.  If the NOI is your go-to, then good luck randomly finding a Muslim that believes  as the NOI does.  The NOI also believes that the white man is the devil.  I'd happily disagree with the NOI on that too.

And no where in in orthodox Islam does it say that Muhammad is the only prophet.  In Islamic belief, he is the last Prophet, therefore his relevance.  Now if you Google hard enough, I'm sure will find some guy who says different.  But it still isn't mainstream.

You can believe what you want.  But Muslims live under the separation of church and state every day.  As most other Americans, we prefer it.  God forbid someone like Mike Pence be allowed to legislate his version of Christianity.

I already said that Muhammad, according to Islamic belief, is the LAST Prophet.  The NOI disagrees and belief that their founder was the Madhi. 

I am not NOI and cannot belong to NOI because I am a so-called "white devil". 

I did try a small slice of a bean pie one time.  It was okay. 

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6 minutes ago, Ode2Joy said:

Let me make it very easy for you:

Can a Muslim - a REAL Muslim and not just someone who labels himself as a Muslim for some reason - believe that Jesus is God and at the same time believe that Allah alone is God?

"Muslim" is a religious belief system, not an ethnic group.

 

You don't want to make it easy.  Nor do I need you to make it easy.  What you want for me is to prove your point.

You want me to make a blanket statement on  all 1 billions Muslims based on the belief of a few people from a very small Muslim sect.  The thing is, if someone tells me they are "Muslim", I tell them at their word an keep it moving.  They don't define my faith for me.

You want to pick one person as an example for "Muslims". I notice you are not doing this with Christians or Jews.

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Just now, Ode2Joy said:

I already said that Muhammad, according to Islamic belief, is the LAST Prophet.  The NOI disagrees and belief that their founder was the Madhi. 

I am not NOI and cannot belong to NOI because I am a so-called "white devil". 

I did try a small slice of a bean pie one time.  It was okay. 

I call BS.  Bean pie is terrible.

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Just now, FormerlySouthSide said:

You don't want to make it easy.  Nor do I need you to make it easy.  What you want for me is to prove your point.

You want me to make a blanket statement on  all 1 billions Muslims based on the belief of a few people from a very small Muslim sect.  The thing is, if someone tells me they are "Muslim", I tell them at their word an keep it moving.  They don't define my faith for me.

You want to pick one person as an example for "Muslims". I notice you are not doing this with Christians or Jews.

You already proved my point. 

All Muslims who identify as NOI believe that one person was the Madhi and that one very small Muslim sect is far different than the many Christian sects who accept and perform same sex marriage as part of their regular and ongoing religious practices.

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2 minutes ago, FormerlySouthSide said:

I call BS.  Bean pie is terrible.

Who's being intolerant now?  Ever eaten plain matzo bread? 

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Posted (edited)

26 minutes ago, hst2 said:

"But what does the Bible have to say about Jesus Christ as a prophet? The role of the prophet in the Old Testament was to foretell the future and the truths about God. Jesus, of course, did both of these things."

Link

Christians believe that Jesus is God, the Messiah. 

Do YOU believe that Jesus is the actual Son of God and in his divinity?

Edited by Ode2Joy

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23 minutes ago, Ode2Joy said:

Christians believe that Jesus is God, the Messiah. 

Do YOU believe that Jesus is the actual Son of God and in his divinity?

I thought you guys believed that God created Jesus. 

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5 minutes ago, FatBoy said:

I thought you guys believed that God created Jesus. 

They’re confused or at least that one is. :lol:

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1 hour ago, retired said:

Once again organized religion rears its ugly head and conflict ensues.

The "word of God/Allah (Mohammed)/Jehovah, etc." was written by men, men who were seeking to control other men and women, who said it came to them from "God/Allah (Mohammed)/Jehovah, etc." and thus must be believed and obeyed.

Intolerance arises when not everyone concerned accepts that what the priests/ministers/rabbis/imams, etc. say is correct. Then we have Reformations, schisms, break-aways, Puritans, the Inquisition, sharia law and all sorts of fun things.

And so the circus has continued throughout history -- with no end in sight.

Excellent post.

My belief is that when you take your final sleep and you are being judged. I don't think 'God' is going to sit and look at the various 'rule books' (Bible, Koran etc) ....'God' maybe a women, a man and image of either or both or neither. 'God' could be a cloud.

But the bottom line question will be IMHO....Did you do the best you could? Did  you try and help others? Things like that....not....'well you did eat meat on Friday long ago' or you used my name in vain.

I think God has a bigger picture than the checklists of religion.

At least I pray he does. ;)

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Posted (edited)

5 minutes ago, Guido2 said:

Excellent post.

My belief is that when you take your final sleep and you are being judged. I don't think 'God' is going to sit and look at the various 'rule books' (Bible, Koran etc) ....'God' maybe a women, a man and image of either or both or neither. 'God' could be a cloud.

But the bottom line question will be IMHO....Did you do the best you could? Did  you try and help others? Things like that....not....'well you did eat meat on Friday long ago' or you used my name in vain.

I think God has a bigger picture than the checklists of religion.

At least I pray he does. ;)

According to the Bible there is only one Unpardonable Sin. 

Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter” (Mark 3:28), but then He gives one exception: “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin” (verse 29).

Edited by flyboy56

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1 hour ago, FormerlySouthSide said:

If you are basing everything on the NOI, then you are talking about very small segment of the world's Muslims, and still a small segment of American Muslims.  Using the NOI as your example of "real" Muslims is like using, I don't know...Jehovah's Witnesses to as examples of "real" Christians.

And no, I don't believe that Fard Muhammad is the Madhi.  If that is your belief or any one elses, then so be it.

I don't know if my Imam would perform a gay marriage.  But the congregation I belong to is fairly "liberal" or "progressive".  Not being gay or single, I never asked.

You are hung up on what "real" Muslims are.  There are no "real" Muslims and there are no "real" Christians.  Very few individuals practice their faith to the letter.  So you can't make generalizations on how any one of any faith will view a given social issues.

Why are you fixated on the NOI, any way?

 

Do you or your "liberal," "progressive" congregation believe Israel has a right to exist?

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6 minutes ago, flyboy56 said:

According to the Bible there is only one Unpardonable Sin. 

Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter” (Mark 3:28), but then He gives one exception: “Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin” (verse 29).

'Gxx dang mouse battery'..... I guess I had better go to confession...missed that one ^^^^^.

But am I off the hook because I was cursing an object and not God.....that work?

See that is the problem....interpretation and syntax.

That is why there are so many lawyers.  :lol:

Kidding around BTW....sort of.

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1 minute ago, boink said:

Do you or your "liberal," "progressive" congregation believe Israel has a right to exist?

You are asking me a loaded question based on your own dim view of Islam.  Apparently people on this forum think that Muslims do is sit around talk about gays and Israel.  As if there is some consensus with among everyone in the room on Israel and gays.  If of there were such a discussion, the Malaysian guy on my Right may have a different view from the Palestinian guy in my Left.

Israel has a right to exist. The does NOT means that Israel has the right oppress Palestinian people.

 

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47 minutes ago, FatBoy said:

I thought you guys believed that God created Jesus. 

 

41 minutes ago, bmore_ken said:

They’re confused or at least that one is. :lol:

Your lack of knowledge on the subject of Christian beliefs and other religions is exceeded only by your willingness to comment and put it on display.

 

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11 minutes ago, FormerlySouthSide said:

You are asking me a loaded question based on your own dim view of Islam.  Apparently people on this forum think that Muslims do is sit around talk about gays and Israel.  As if there is some consensus with among everyone in the room on Israel and gays.  If of there were such a discussion, the Malaysian guy on my Right may have a different view from the Palestinian guy in my Left.

Israel has a right to exist. The does NOT means that Israel has the right oppress Palestinian people.

 

I think boink really wanted to know if Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state.  You know, like how Islamic states or Islamic "republics" exist and make certain that they remain Islamic.

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1 minute ago, Ode2Joy said:

Your lack of knowledge on the subject of Christian beliefs and other religions is exceeded only by your willingness to comment and put it on display.

I'm just trying to figure out how Jesus and God are one in the same because, apparently, Christians believe God created Jesus.

It seems you have knowledge of such things. Why not just share. 

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Just now, FatBoy said:

I'm just trying to figure out how Jesus and God are one in the same because, apparently, Christians believe God created Jesus.

It seems you have knowledge of such things. Why not just share. 

Wow.  You wear your lack of knowledge like a badge of honor, unless you're looking at Jesus from the perspective of a Jehovah's Witness. 

But I doubt that too. 

 

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Posted (edited)

8 minutes ago, FatBoy said:

I'm just trying to figure out how Jesus and God are one in the same because, apparently, Christians believe God created Jesus.

It seems you have knowledge of such things. Why not just share. 

I remember from my indoctrination days, that Jesus was the son of God. 

 For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone whobelieves in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.…

John 3:16

Edited by bmore_ken

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5 minutes ago, Ode2Joy said:

I think boink really wanted to know if Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state.  You know, like how Islamic states or Islamic "republics" exist and make certain that they remain Islamic.

Sure.  Why not?

My issue with Israel is not that they are a Jewish state.  It's their treatment of Palestinians that bothers me.  Israel being a secular state wouldn't make their current treatment of Palestinians any better.  It is apartheid.  Palestinian Muslims and Christian alike suffer.

  

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1 minute ago, bmore_ken said:

I remember from my indoctrination days, that Jesus was the son of God. 

that everyone who believes in Him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone whobelieves in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.…

John 3:16

Yep. That's what I was thinking about. I don't know why Ode2joy is avoiding the question. 

Holy Mackerel. 

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