Duke of Earl

World War I Monument Vandalized

262 posts in this topic

2 minutes ago, Evil Yoda said:

It belonged to the United States, by previous agreement. What do you think the government's reaction would be if you or I decided to "secede"?

Actually California is making noises about doing just that. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Evil Yoda said:

It belonged to the United States, by previous agreement. What do you think the government's reaction would be if you or I decided to "secede"?

Agreements can be terminated.  

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Just now, Guido2 said:

Actually California is making noises about doing just that. 

And that would be wrong. Unless the entire nation decides as a whole that the United States is over. Texas also makes those noises. That's all it is, noise. For now.

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1 minute ago, Evil Yoda said:

And that would be wrong. Unless the entire nation decides as a whole that the United States is over. Texas also makes those noises. That's all it is, noise. For now.

Why should anyone outside of California have a say in that decision?  That would be a conflict of interest.  People have a natural right to the government of their choice.  

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3 minutes ago, Guido2 said:

Actually California is making noises about doing just that. 

 

There are two ways out:

By the agreement of the rest of  us or by winning a war against the rest of us.

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1 minute ago, Smokey 1 said:

Why should anyone outside of California have a say in that decision?  That would be a conflict of interest.  People have a natural right to the government of their choice.  

Because it agreed to be part of the United States many years ago. That comes with obligations which correspond to the benefits.

In both the Texas and California cases, too, it's unlikely they mean to secede so that they can maintain a slave state, which is why the Confederates wished to secede. So there's no moral equivalence. The Confederate government and landowners were evil men and women. One deals with evil differently.

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4 minutes ago, Smokey 1 said:

Why should anyone outside of California have a say in that decision?  That would be a conflict of interest.  People have a natural right to the government of their choice.  

Do you think that slaves are people?

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Posted (edited)

19 minutes ago, Smokey 1 said:

Why should anyone outside of California have a say in that decision?  That would be a conflict of interest.  People have a natural right to the government of their choice.  

HHHHHmmmmmmm and double HHHHHHHmmmmmmmm.

That argument sounds familiar....let me see ....let me see....ahhhhh something about blue uniforms and gray uniforms....hang on it will come to me. :lol:

hst2...help me here....I am at coming up short...... :rolleyes:

Edited by Guido2

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Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, Cameron said:

Do you think that slaves are people?

Well the gooberment seems to think people are serfs ....at the very least....especially lately. :lol:

Edited by Guido2

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20 minutes ago, Smokey 1 said:

Why should anyone outside of California have a say in that decision?  That would be a conflict of interest.  People have a natural right to the government of their choice.  

Unless, of course, that government takes lands from white folks, it's an injustice. To protect keeping Black folks as property, well, not so much.

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14 minutes ago, Evil Yoda said:

Because it agreed to be part of the United States many years ago. That comes with obligations which correspond to the benefits.

In both the Texas and California cases, too, it's unlikely they mean to secede so that they can maintain a slave state, which is why the Confederates wished to secede. So there's no moral equivalence. The Confederate government and landowners were evil men and women. One deals with evil differently.

Natural rights trump any agreement.

The right of self determination is independent of any other rights and it doesn't have a morality clause.  The reason for independence is irrelevant to the right.

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Posted (edited)

20 minutes ago, Cameron said:

Do you think that slaves are people?

Of course.  Unfortunately they, like women, couldn't vote at that time.

Edited by Smokey 1

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1 minute ago, Smokey 1 said:

Of course.  Unfortunately they like women couldn't vote at that time.

Is that how the South attempted to leave the union?  By voting?

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Just now, Cameron said:

Is that how the South attempted to leave the union?  By voting?

The decision to secede or not was obviously voted on.

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5 minutes ago, hst2 said:

Unless, of course, that government takes lands from white folks, it's an injustice. To protect keeping Black folks as property, well, not so much.

I thought  you have said time and time again that black folks don't have assests and property...in fact it is one of your biggest complaints?

So how can one protect things that (in your mind) don't exist?

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Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, Smokey 1 said:

The decision to secede or not was obviously voted on.

And from my understanding of history....many conciliatory things were offered by the south to Congress and were voted down by the North majority. 

Hence leaving the Union came about. 

Yes that is definitely a nutshell summary....but I think fairly accurate. 

Edited by Guido2

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19 minutes ago, Smokey 1 said:

Natural rights trump any agreement.

The right of self determination is independent of any other rights and it doesn't have a morality clause.  The reason for independence is irrelevant to the right.

 

17 minutes ago, Smokey 1 said:

Of course.  Unfortunately they, like women, couldn't vote at that time.

Natural rights for me but not for thee? 

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13 minutes ago, Guido2 said:

I thought  you have said time and time again that black folks don't have assests and property...in fact it is one of your biggest complaints?

So how can one protect things that (in your mind) don't exist?

"Black folks as property", not "black folks' property".

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3 minutes ago, Cameron said:

 

Natural rights for me but not for thee? 

I am not agreeing with the election laws at the time.  They were wrong in my opinion but we are talking about history and how things were not how they should have been based on modern sensibilities.

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5 minutes ago, Baltimatt said:

"Black folks as property", not "black folks' property".

Thank you for correcting my oversight.

Apologies to all. 

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4 minutes ago, Smokey 1 said:

I am not agreeing with the election laws at the time.  They were wrong in my opinion but we are talking about history and how things were not how they should have been based on modern sensibilities.

The self determination of a people depends on election laws?

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51 minutes ago, Evil Yoda said:

Because it agreed to be part of the United States many years ago. That comes with obligations which correspond to the benefits.

In both the Texas and California cases, too, it's unlikely they mean to secede so that they can maintain a slave state, which is why the Confederates wished to secede. So there's no moral equivalence. The Confederate government and landowners were evil men and women. One deals with evil differently.

On the one hand you maybe correct....in today's context...and maybe the North's context back then. 

In actuality they ....were business people...and they were protecting there assets....and at all costs....and gee we see that sort of thing played out all the time in 2018.

If you separate the human/slave factor out of the equation....that was all it was....protecting assets.

And I am not saying it was right or condoning what they did. I am just applying fact vs emotion here. 

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16 minutes ago, Cameron said:

The self determination of a people depends on election laws?

Like I said, history is what was, not what we think it should have been.

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1 hour ago, Smokey 1 said:

Natural rights trump any agreement.

The right of self determination is independent of any other rights and it doesn't have a morality clause.  The reason for independence is irrelevant to the right.

Your natural rights argument rings a little hollow considering you are one of two big advocates here for a slave state.

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25 minutes ago, Guido2 said:

In actuality they ....were business people...and they were protecting there assets....and at all costs....and gee we see that sort of thing played out all the time in 2018.

If you separate the human/slave factor out of the equation....that was all it was....protecting assets.

And I am not saying it was right or condoning what they did. I am just applying fact vs emotion here. 

That makes them more, rather than less, evil in my view. Yes, I understand that we have a lot of immoral businessmen in the modern era, too, and mostly this is because immoral businessmen escape all serious punishment for their misdeeds. That does not excuse their behavior, or that of the Confederate "government".

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