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WKDWZD

Tension in Gaza as Palestinians begin to bury 58 dead

93 posts in this topic

42 minutes ago, Ode2Joy said:

A visit to the Holocaust Museum would be beneficial to any and all who downplay the Holocaust and concentration camps used for Jews, Romany, homosexuals, and others by compare it to Gaza.  IMO, death trains, gassing of millions, and crematoriums tell a different tale than fits some agendas when such facts are willfully ignored in making such comparisons ...

As someone who has visited Osweicim, Birkenau and Brzezinka I am very familiar with the Holocaust Museum. I have never, nor would downplay the Holocaust. Nor have I compared the concentration camps of Germany and Poland to Gaza, it is you that is trying to conflate those.

This thread is about the Gaza issue and events of 75 years ago have nothing to do with it. If you want a genuine discussiion on the Holocaust, start your own thread on it, I'll meet you there, you might be pleasantly surprised at my own feelings on that issue, but they have no place on this thread.

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2 hours ago, WKDWZD said:

As someone who has visited Osweicim, Birkenau and Brzezinka I am very familiar with the Holocaust Museum. I have never, nor would downplay the Holocaust. Nor have I compared the concentration camps of Germany and Poland to Gaza, it is you that is trying to conflate those.

This thread is about the Gaza issue and events of 75 years ago have nothing to do with it. If you want a genuine discussiion on the Holocaust, start your own thread on it, I'll meet you there, you might be pleasantly surprised at my own feelings on that issue, but they have no place on this thread.

You don't recall you called Gaza a concentration camp ..??

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3 minutes ago, stevez51 said:

You don't recall you called Gaza a concentration camp ..??

Don't even bother ......

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Posted (edited)

22 minutes ago, stevez51 said:

You don't recall you called Gaza a concentration camp ..??

 

18 minutes ago, Eastside Terp said:

Don't even bother ......

Yes, I likened it to a concentration camp. You don't recall that I said that not all concentration camps have gas chambers and crematoria? and that you also had concentration camps in the US that you incarcerated citizens of Japanese ancestry into in WW2?

If you don't have anything of value to add to this thread, just butt out of it, and quit trying to assign false positions to me.

Edited by WKDWZD

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26 minutes ago, stevez51 said:

You don't recall you called Gaza a concentration camp ..??

 

22 minutes ago, Eastside Terp said:

Don't even bother ......

My mistake. 

Who would ever think that someone deliberately using "concentration camps" in a discussion about the Jewish State of Israel would intentionally be trying to make a connection and comparison to the Holocaust? 

For that matter, why would anyone think that the Holocaust would make Jews in Israel distrustful of those who call for them to be driven into the sea, or for the destruction of Israel, just because two-thirds of the Jewish population in Europe were subjected to actual extermination?

People who occasionally read the news already know how much concern for human rights, especially those involving protesters, and freedom of the press Turkey's Erdogan has demonstrated.  That, as well as his determination to emphasize Islamic influence in Turkey and the surrounding region.   

 

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26 minutes ago, Ode2Joy said:

 

My mistake. 

Who would ever think that someone deliberately using "concentration camps" in a discussion about the Jewish State of Israel would intentionally be trying to make a connection and comparison to the Holocaust? ...

 

Someone with reading comprehension difficulties come to mind, if not that then I must consider that someone dishonest in their posting and with their own agenda is a likelyhood. After all, this discussion is about Gaza it is not "a discussion about the Jewish State of Israel" as you falsely claim.

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1 minute ago, WKDWZD said:

Someone with reading comprehension difficulties come to mind, if not that then I must consider that someone dishonest in their posting and with their own agenda is a likelyhood. After all, this discussion is about Gaza it is not "a discussion about the Jewish State of Israel" as you falsely claim.

I disagree.  If Israel was a Muslim state, and I think some of her enemies would be fine with that and wish it to happen eventually, I doubt that Palestinian/Gaza issue would be perceived as a problem.  

It's impossible to ignore the Jewish aspect of Israel and pretend that it is not part of the equation that's at issue. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Ode2Joy said:

I disagree.  If Israel was a Muslim state, and I think some of her enemies would be fine with that and wish it to happen eventually, I doubt that Palestinian/Gaza issue would be perceived as a problem.  

It's impossible to ignore the Jewish aspect of Israel and pretend that it is not part of the equation that's at issue. 

 

Sorry, I've read your first paragraph 3 times now and it still makes no sense to me.

Your second paragraph just demostrates your continuous efforts to conflate Jews wirh Israel and to bring that into this discusion about Gaza.

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4 hours ago, WKDWZD said:

Sorry, I've read your first paragraph 3 times now and it still makes no sense to me.

Your second paragraph just demostrates your continuous efforts to conflate Jews wirh Israel and to bring that into this discusion about Gaza.

And some folks efforts to separate Zionism from Judaism sound an awful lot like some of the posters on here arguing about the  the confederacy and slavery .....

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59 minutes ago, Eastside Terp said:

And some folks efforts to separate Zionism from Judaism sound an awful lot like some of the posters on here arguing about the  the confederacy and slavery .....

If you don't know the difference between Zionism and Judaism, there is little help for you.

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14 hours ago, Ode2Joy said:

 

My mistake. 

Who would ever think that someone deliberately using "concentration camps" in a discussion about the Jewish State of Israel would intentionally be trying to make a connection and comparison to the Holocaust? 

For that matter, why would anyone think that the Holocaust would make Jews in Israel distrustful of those who call for them to be driven into the sea, or for the destruction of Israel, just because two-thirds of the Jewish population in Europe were subjected to actual extermination?

People who occasionally read the news already know how much concern for human rights, especially those involving protesters, and freedom of the press Turkey's Erdogan has demonstrated.  That, as well as his determination to emphasize Islamic influence in Turkey and the surrounding region.   

 

Does Israel's treatment of Gaza make you uncomfortable?  Your efforts to deflect and change the subject sure make it look that way. 

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1 hour ago, ivanbalt said:

Does Israel's treatment of Gaza make you uncomfortable?  Your efforts to deflect and change the subject sure make it look that way. 

Nope.  Not at all.  The deflection on this thread is by those who can't bring themselves to acknowledge that Israel itself is legally defined as a democratic AND a Jewish state.  You can't separate the Jewish aspect from Israel's existence.

Israel is celebrating its 70th birthday as an independent state by choosing to do so when they had the opportunity and by winning the 1947 war with the Arabs.

They now occupy Gaza because they were again attacked and aren't going to bare their throats to Hamas.  Hamas "celebrated" Israel's 70th by provoking and attacking Israel's border for PR purposes, resulting in at least 58 attackers, or people that the attackers hid behind, being killed. 

I'm not an evangelical or Jewish, but I choose Israel over Hamas each and every time.  The problem that many have with Israel is that Israel exists. 

The next time anyone on here brings up those white nationalist protesters in Virginia, just remember that they were the ones chanting "JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US!"  You cannot honestly and realistically separate Israel and its Jewish aspect which is legally and intrinsically part of what Israel is.

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Posted (edited)

More deflection.

It's as if Israel can't ever be wrong about anything.

I support Israel too. But gunning down protesters, including children, is hard to justify.

 

Edited by Pickle20

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2 minutes ago, Pickle20 said:

More deflection.

 

He just keeps repeating the same old shtick over and over. This thread Is not about Israel or the separation of "the Jewish aspect from Israel's existence", it is about the current situation in Gaza.

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2 hours ago, Pickle20 said:

More deflection.

It's as if Israel can't ever be wrong about anything.

I support Israel too. But gunning down protesters, including children, is hard to justify.

 

I have a huge problem with any Palestinian parent who would bring their child to such a demonstration in the first place. I have seen some news videos showing mothers carrying toddlers in that mess. That smacks of one of two things - irresponsibility on the part of a mother, or women and children being forced by Hamas to participate in the demonstration so they can be cover for armed terrorists.

I highly doubt there are lots of irresponsible parents in Gaza, but it is well known that there are plenty of armed Hamas militants who intimidate the civilian population for their political purposes.And given that the charter of Hamas calls for the elimination of Israel and the eradication of the Jewish people, it is pretty easy to understand why Israel shows very little mercy to events orchestrated by Hamas.

I am no particular fan of all of the tactics used by Israel, but I can understand why they are considered necessary by the current leadership of Israel. From their perspective they are fiercely defending their right to exist against an enemy that wants to eradicate them from the face of the earth. 

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12 minutes ago, Papi said:

I have a huge problem with any Palestinian parent who would bring their child to such a demonstration in the first place. I have seen some news videos showing mothers carrying toddlers in that mess. That smacks of one of two things - irresponsibility on the part of a mother, or women and children being forced by Hamas to participate in the demonstration so they can be cover for armed terrorists.

I highly doubt there are lots of irresponsible parents in Gaza, but it is well known that there are plenty of armed Hamas militants who intimidate the civilian population for their political purposes.And given that the charter of Hamas calls for the elimination of Israel and the eradication of the Jewish people, it is pretty easy to understand why Israel shows very little mercy to events orchestrated by Hamas.

I am no particular fan of all of the tactics used by Israel, but I can understand why they are considered necessary by the current leadership of Israel. From their perspective they are fiercely defending their right to exist against an enemy that wants to eradicate them from the face of the earth. 

The problem is nothing ever changes.  When Hamas doesn't orchestrate violence, Gaza is still sealed off and Israel continues building settlements in the West Bank.  And the US happily supports this pseudo-apartheid.

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10 minutes ago, Papi said:

I have a huge problem with any Palestinian parent who would bring their child to such a demonstration in the first place. I have seen some news videos showing mothers carrying toddlers in that mess. That smacks of one of two things - irresponsibility on the part of a mother, or women and children being forced by Hamas to participate in the demonstration so they can be cover for armed terrorists.

I highly doubt there are lots of irresponsible parents in Gaza, but it is well known that there are plenty of armed Hamas militants who intimidate the civilian population for their political purposes.And given that the charter of Hamas calls for the elimination of Israel and the eradication of the Jewish people, it is pretty easy to understand why Israel shows very little mercy to events orchestrated by Hamas.

I am no particular fan of all of the tactics used by Israel, but I can understand why they are considered necessary by the current leadership of Israel. From their perspective they are fiercely defending their right to exist against an enemy that wants to eradicate them from the face of the earth. 

So you are, in essence, okay with Israel deploying IDF snipers to shoot and kill women and children who are protesting on their own side of the border fence?

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1 minute ago, ivanbalt said:

The problem is nothing ever changes.  When Hamas doesn't orchestrate violence, Gaza is still sealed off and Israel continues building settlements in the West Bank.  And the US happily supports this pseudo-apartheid.

It isn't pseudo. 

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1 hour ago, WKDWZD said:

So you are, in essence, okay with Israel deploying IDF snipers to shoot and kill women and children who are protesting on their own side of the border fence?

I am saying those women and children should not be there, and are probably forced by Hamas to be there so that when the militants of Hamas provoke a confrontation they can make sure the women and children get in the line of fire, in order to create the shock effect they want the world to see. The real question is which side is more barbaric. 

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2 hours ago, WKDWZD said:

So you are, in essence, okay with Israel deploying IDF snipers to shoot and kill women and children who are protesting on their own side of the border fence?

Yea, cause that's what happened ......

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16 hours ago, WKDWZD said:

If you don't know the difference between Zionism and Judaism, there is little help for you.

Nice deflection .....

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Papi said:

I am saying those women and children should not be there, and are probably forced by Hamas to be there so that when the militants of Hamas provoke a confrontation they can make sure the women and children get in the line of fire, in order to create the shock effect they want the world to see. The real question is which side is more barbaric. 

So you are saying that it is okay for Israeli snipers to shoot to kill Palestinian women and children protesters on their own side of their border.

Even if, as you claim, those women and children were "forced by Hamas to be there so that when the militants of Hamas provoke a confrontation they can make sure the women and children get in the line of fire", which I strongly disagree with, that still doesn't justify the Isaeli action.

I am led to think that there is no good end to this for either Israel, Palestine or the USA. I do not understand how Americans can be so out of kilter with the rest of the world on this issue. I can only conclude that your extreme pro-Israel position even when it is clear that they are wrong in murdering Palestinians, is inculcated into you during your upbringing and that you are indoctrinated during your schooling.

There is no real question, that is only something that you and Israel share, as the UN and it's 139 member states who disagree with you and Israel shows.

Edited by WKDWZD

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Posted (edited)

17 minutes ago, Eastside Terp said:

Yea, cause that's what happened ......

Yeah, that's what happened.

16 minutes ago, Eastside Terp said:

Nice deflection .....

The deflection is on you and your sides continuing efforts to make this about Israel and 'Jews' and not about the thread topic, Gaza.

Edited by WKDWZD

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1 hour ago, WKDWZD said:

So you are saying that it is okay for Israeli snipers to shoot to kill Palestinian women and children protesters on their own side of their border.

Even if, as you claim, those women and children were "forced by Hamas to be there so that when the militants of Hamas provoke a confrontation they can make sure the women and children get in the line of fire, which I strongly disagree with, that still doesn't justify the Isaeli action.

I am led to think that there is no good end to this for either Israel, Palestine or the USA. I do not understand how Americans can be so out of kilter with the rest of the world on this issue. I can only conclude that your extreme pro-Israel position even when it is clear that they are wrong in murdering Palestinians, is inculcated into you during your upbringing and that you are indoctrinated during your schooling.

There is no real question, that is only something that you and Israel share, as the UN and it's 139 member states who disagree with you and Israel shows.

I don't have an extreme pro-Israel position. Quite frankly I think they are an arrogant bunch. But I said that I UNDERSTAND their perspective, given the avowed desire of Hamas to eradicate both the Jewish state and the Jewish people. Anyone who hitches their star to Hamas becomes an enemy by default. 

When I was in school I don't recall any kind of "indoctrination" about Israel. They were not even a mention in my social studies classes in high school (which was 1964-1966). My most vivid memory about the state of Israel from back in those times was the movie Exodus, which I didn't even like, and the news about the 1967 3 day war.

The US political position in support of Israel is something over which I have zero influence, but it has been consistent across every administration since 1948, regardless of the party in power. My personal opinion is that such consistent support is simply the result of the huge influence of the American Jewish population, which controls an enormous amount of power and wealth across the economy and (therefore) government. 

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