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ms maggie

June 6

45 posts in this topic

41 minutes ago, JoyinMudville said:

Pas des Calais was the obvious target

I think “expected target” is more accurate.     Shorter trip from UK but Normandy offered Brest, St Lo and Caen as objectives as well.

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1 hour ago, prodigalson1 said:

He was my first president. One of my earliest memories of television. 

I always thought you were younger. Kennedy was my first but I was 6 months when he was killed. I guess I knew lbj was president because I do remember the Humphrey Nixon election. 

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27 minutes ago, Rael said:

I always thought you were younger. Kennedy was my first but I was 6 months when he was killed. I guess I knew lbj was president because I do remember the Humphrey Nixon election. 

I did not know what Eisenhower was talking about, but I clear as day can recall seeing him on television several times. He struck me as being a nice guy. Grandfatherly. 

I was in 2nd grade when Kenndy died. People everywhere were crying. It was cold and everything seemed sad.

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10 minutes ago, prodigalson1 said:

I did not know what Eisenhower was talking about, but I clear as day can recall seeing him on television several times. He struck me as being a nice guy. Grandfatherly. 

I was in 2nd grade when Kenndy died. People everywhere were crying. It was cold and everything seemed sad.

The Beatles hit the next January though and went a long way towards putting things right.

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6 hours ago, MiddleOfTheRoad said:

I think “expected target” is more accurate.     Shorter trip from UK but Normandy offered Brest, St Lo and Caen as objectives as well.

But... other than Brest, none of those targets are strategic. Brest now houses France’s nuclear submarine fleet but I don’t know what kind of port facilities it had in the 40s. St Lo is important as a crossroads but only if you are trying to break out of the Carentin Peninsula. Beyond that it holds no larger strategic significance. Caen was important because it anchored the allies’ left flank. Otherwise, who cares?

The allies valued Le Harve as a port to unload supplies. The Germans held out and then destroyed the port but the allies were pleasantly surprised at their ability to land large quantities of supplies and men directly onto the beach. For most of the summer of 44, the allies’ supplies and reinforcements came through the original D-day beaches. They actually didn’t need a deep water port - until the supply lines got too long.

Pas des Calais is closer to Germany and, as you noted, it was the shortest crossing. The decision to use Patton as a decoy for a fictious Pas Des Calais landing was brilliant.

Ike is not known as a great strategic general and, later in 44, was often rightly criticized for his convential, unimaginative thinking, and timidity. Of course, he brought great political and diplomatic skills to the multi-nation alliance which were essential.

I would argue that his selection of Normandy and then his reaction to the German offensive of December 44, the battle of the bulge, place him on par with the greatest military tactiticians in history

 

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7 hours ago, zenwalk said:

The Beatles hit the next January though and went a long way towards putting things right.

You are soooooo right. They changed the world. 😊

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7 hours ago, Rael said:

I always thought you were younger. Kennedy was my first but I was 6 months when he was killed. I guess I knew lbj was president because I do remember the Humphrey Nixon election. 

I kinda thought you were younger too...like maybe 48 or something. 🙂

My mother had a 'Vote for Kennedy' button she wore on her over coat. I was learning to read when Kennedy was president. I lived across from Druid Hill Park, the Zoo.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, JoyinMudville said:

But... other than Brest, none of those targets are strategic. Brest now houses France’s nuclear submarine fleet but I don’t know what kind of port facilities it had in the 40s. St Lo is important as a crossroads but only if you are trying to break out of the Carentin Peninsula. Beyond that it holds no larger strategic significance. Caen was important because it anchored the allies’ left flank. Otherwise, who cares?

The allies valued Le Harve as a port to unload supplies. The Germans held out and then destroyed the port but the allies were pleasantly surprised at their ability to land large quantities of supplies and men directly onto the beach. For most of the summer of 44, the allies’ supplies and reinforcements came through the original D-day beaches. They actually didn’t need a deep water port - until the supply lines got too long.

Pas des Calais is closer to Germany and, as you noted, it was the shortest crossing. The decision to use Patton as a decoy for a fictious Pas Des Calais landing was brilliant.

Ike is not known as a great strategic general and, later in 44, was often rightly criticized for his convential, unimaginative thinking, and timidity. Of course, he brought great political and diplomatic skills to the multi-nation alliance which were essential.

I would argue that his selection of Normandy and then his reaction to the German offensive of December 44, the battle of the bulge, place him on par with the greatest military tactiticians in history

 

Ike's skills lay in diplomacy (handling Churchill alone!), administration and leadership. Brilliant choice by Marshall.

Edited by ms maggie

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2 hours ago, JoyinMudville said:

 

I would argue that his selection of Normandy and then his reaction to the German offensive of December 44, the battle of the bulge, place him on par with the greatest military tactiticians in history

 

Along side Grant and Lee as far as American tacticians go but also as you describe. I agree.

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Posted (edited)

Audiobooks, great to listen to every day on the drive back & forth to work. have both Band of Brothers and Citizen Soldiers by Steven Ambrose. Several others too. Pacific Crucible, The Wrong Stuff (humourous reflections of a WWII B-17 co-pilot), and a couple more on Submarine ops in WWII. And there's one recalling George McGoverns' role as a B-24 pilot in Italy. There are others but I'd have to get the thumb drive from the car to see all the Titles on it.

Edited by Bartman

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1 hour ago, prodigalson1 said:

You are soooooo right. They changed the world. 😊

They changed a lot of people's view of it. ;)

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24 minutes ago, WKDWZD said:

They changed a lot of people's view of it. ;)

I don't know how to do links on my phone but 'How The Beatles Changed The World' , 2017 1hr 30min, has a 6.8 (that's high) rating on IMDb. 

Yeah, one could say they changed the world. 

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Posted (edited)

11 hours ago, zenwalk said:

The Beatles hit the next January though and went a long way towards putting things right.

I was 9 , yet I remember that Sunday night in February like it was yesterday. Ed Sullivan Really big shoooo.:)

Edited by mrdeltoid

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On 6/6/2018 at 7:08 AM, mlatoman said:

One day this battle will be looked upon like people look at Saratoga, The Marne, maybe even Gettysburg. They may know of it, but no one will truly "remember" Operation Overlord other than from books, film or a statue. But the deeds they accomplished should never be forgotten. 

That’s a huge problem. The thousands of lives sacrificed for the freedoms we enjoy, get farther in the rear view, the more those freedoms are taken for granted, the easier it is to give them up with out a fight. Our country is still a toddler. Our youth needs to know this. The war for independence, the civil war, the war against the axis powers, need to be more extensively covered, not glossed over. Maybe that will put the issues like a stained blue dress, a porn star, and a comedian using the “C” word in proper perspective. 

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When a "safe space"  for 19 year olds  wasn't smoking pot and in co ed dorm it was Omaha Beach.  

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12 hours ago, JoyinMudville said:

But... other than Brest, none of those targets are strategic. Brest now houses France’s nuclear submarine fleet but I don’t know what kind of port facilities it had in the 40s. St Lo is important as a crossroads but only if you are trying to break out of the Carentin Peninsula. Beyond that it holds no larger strategic significance. Caen was important because it anchored the allies’ left flank. Otherwise, who cares?

The allies valued Le Harve as a port to unload supplies. The Germans held out and then destroyed the port but the allies were pleasantly surprised at their ability to land large quantities of supplies and men directly onto the beach. For most of the summer of 44, the allies’ supplies and reinforcements came through the original D-day beaches. They actually didn’t need a deep water port - until the supply lines got too long.

Pas des Calais is closer to Germany and, as you noted, it was the shortest crossing. The decision to use Patton as a decoy for a fictious Pas Des Calais landing was brilliant.

Ike is not known as a great strategic general and, later in 44, was often rightly criticized for his convential, unimaginative thinking, and timidity. Of course, he brought great political and diplomatic skills to the multi-nation alliance which were essential.

I would argue that his selection of Normandy and then his reaction to the German offensive of December 44, the battle of the bulge, place him on par with the greatest military tactiticians in history

 

Brest has Ning been a good port.  St Lo and Caen were population centers and transportation hubs.  He who controls logistics controls the battle.

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We hit the beach with the British, Canadians, and Free French. We were later joined by the Poles and fought under the protection of an airforce piloted by Americans, Brits, Canadians, Poles, Czechs, and Dutch. In the Pacific, the Australians played a very important role as well. The coalition that was forged and came into it's own 74 years ago, led by the United States, liberated a continent from tyranny and formed the greatest integrated economic system in history. It ushered in seven decades of unparalleled prosperity. It's shocking and sad to watch as Trump does everything in his power to destroy that coalition and system.

 

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3 hours ago, MiddleOfTheRoad said:

Brest has Ning been a good port.  St Lo and Caen were population centers and transportation hubs.  He who controls logistics controls the battle.

That's all true but if you invade at Calais those places are not strategic, they're backwaters.

Now Antwerp... is strategic.

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12 hours ago, JoyinMudville said:

That's all true but if you invade at Calais those places are not strategic, they're backwaters.

Now Antwerp... is strategic.

Would be interesting to know if Ike’s staff had a similar discussion in the fall of 1943.

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9 hours ago, MiddleOfTheRoad said:

Would be interesting to know if Ike’s staff had a similar discussion in the fall of 1943.

A group led by a British general started looking for sites in early 43 and arrived at Normandy, specifically, the Calvados coast at the mouth of the Orne River. There was roughly 20 miles of relatively smooth sandy beaches which made for good landing grounds. There was concern that the sand wouldn't support tanks and other vehicles so a team of British commandos was sent on a number of missions in midget submarines to collect samples off the beach.

Ike was commanding Operation Husky (Sicily) and the initial landings in Italy. He took over as commander of Overlord in January 44. He was briefed and agreed with the conclusion that Normandy was the place to go. Ike, along with Montgomery and others, did object to the idea of landing three divisions as too small of a force. They demanded more landing craft and expanded the initial invasion force to five divisions which meant  landings at Utah beach.

 

 

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