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jmi1960

Rushing a player to the bigs?

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I read a lot on these boards that we don’t want to rush players to the majors. I have been thinking about that and I have to question just how much that really happens. How do you determine that a player was rushed to duty? Is there any concrete evidence that rushing a player has ruined or slowed someone’s career?

 

I understand that sometimes they have to stay longer in the minors to work on certain problems but it just seems to me that adjusting to the pressure of the bigs is something that can not be taught by spending more time in the minors. You either have the stuff to make or you don’t.

 

Thoughts?

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I read a lot on these boards that we don’t want to rush players to the majors. I have been thinking about that and I have to question just how much that really happens. How do you determine that a player was rushed to duty? Is there any concrete evidence that rushing a player has ruined or slowed someone’s career?

 

I understand that sometimes they have to stay longer in the minors to work on certain problems but it just seems to me that adjusting to the pressure of the bigs is something that can not be taught by spending more time in the minors. You either have the stuff to make or you don’t.

 

Thoughts?

 

Not sure about concrete evidence, but I can sure point to a recent string of O's that fit your discriptions. Ponson,Matos,Bigbie,Hairston,Penn, Loewen.

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I read a lot on these boards that we don’t want to rush players to the majors. I have been thinking about that and I have to question just how much that really happens. How do you determine that a player was rushed to duty? Is there any concrete evidence that rushing a player has ruined or slowed someone’s career?

 

I understand that sometimes they have to stay longer in the minors to work on certain problems but it just seems to me that adjusting to the pressure of the bigs is something that can not be taught by spending more time in the minors. You either have the stuff to make or you don’t.

 

Thoughts?

 

Not sure about concrete evidence, but I can sure point to a recent string of O's that fit your discriptions. Ponson,Matos,Bigbie,Hairston,Penn, Loewen.

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I read a lot on these boards that we don’t want to rush players to the majors. I have been thinking about that and I have to question just how much that really happens. How do you determine that a player was rushed to duty? Is there any concrete evidence that rushing a player has ruined or slowed someone’s career?

 

I understand that sometimes they have to stay longer in the minors to work on certain problems but it just seems to me that adjusting to the pressure of the bigs is something that can not be taught by spending more time in the minors. You either have the stuff to make or you don’t.

 

Thoughts?

 

Not sure about concrete evidence, but I can sure point to a recent string of O's that fit your discriptions. Ponson,Matos,Bigbie,Hairston,Penn, Loewen.

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Not sure about concrete evidence, but I can sure point to a recent string of O's that fit your discriptions. Ponson,Matos,Bigbie,Hairston,Penn, Loewen.

 

Ponson, Matos, Bigbie and Hairston: more time in minors would not have made a difference in these cases. Can't make a purse out of a sow's ear.

 

As for Loewen and Penn, pure speculation that they have been rushed. I think the exposure Penn has gotten at the major league level, will help him know what he needs to work on in the minors. Same for Loewen. I think Loewen showed a lot by the steady improvement after being called up last year.

 

Bottom line, if a player has the intangible things that make a major league standout, you won't know until they get there.

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Matt Riley was rushed to the majors. if I'm remembering correctly, the O's had a set of circumstances (injuries and a couple double-headers from make up games) they were out of arms and brought him up to fill a hole.

 

at the same time, he had been making some noise in the minors and there was an obvious desire by the FO to see him succeed and stay up with the big club.

 

I don't know if this had a negative impact on how his career turned out though.

it's more likely that he never actually had a "24K ARM"

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Yeah and most here thought Markakis was being rushed to the majors. What a lousy season he had last year.

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I think it is impossible to determine if a player was rushed or not.

 

The only way to determine if a player was rushed or not would be to take a Nick Markakis type which people thought were rushed. Compare his stats from last year with his stats if he had stayed in the minors another year. Problem is we can't do that and never can see both sides to make that judgement.

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Matt Riley was rushed to the majors. if I'm remembering correctly, the O's had a set of circumstances (injuries and a couple double-headers from make up games) they were out of arms and brought him up to fill a hole.

 

at the same time, he had been making some noise in the minors and there was an obvious desire by the FO to see him succeed and stay up with the big club.

 

I don't know if this had a negative impact on how his career turned out though.

it's more likely that he never actually had a "24K ARM"

More than $24K was spent on his arm to fix it, with all the injuries he sustained. I can't imagine someone needing 3 Tommy John surgeries before reaching 30, let alone 25 or 26.

 

I think we've all heard stories of how he is a major headcase, and then there was the "final straw" rumor from the 2004 season, when he was told to report directly to Boston to prepare for a start, but didn't.

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Not sure about concrete evidence, but I can sure point to a recent string of O's that fit your discriptions. Ponson,Matos,Bigbie,Hairston,Penn, Loewen.

 

Bigbie was rushed to the bigs? He was nearly 25 when he made his ML debut. It's just that his major league upside was as a 4th or 5th OF, not a starter.

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You either have the stuff to make or you don’t.

 

A lot of things are components of stuff, beyond the obvious physical talent required. Desire to succeed, work ethic, etc.

 

But perhaps most important in a young player is the elusive "makeup". Generally that means maturity and humility to go along with a calm and subtle confidence.

 

It was a pleasure watching two players who some might say were being brought up too early last year - Markakis and Zimmerman. I was in favor of both of them being in the majors. And I'm happy to say, they exceeded my expectations.

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...and had a decent couple of months in the second half of last season, but by no means does that prove that he’s ready to be a major star in MLB.

 

It was more than "a decent couple of months" for Nick....If I remember correctly he had the highest batting avg. in the majors in the 2nd half.

 

No one can be a proven star in the MLB after 1 season, that isn't possible. You'll always hear the sophmore slump comments. But Nick was outstanding.

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But Markakis hasn’t proven anything yet!!

He started off very poorly and had a decent couple of months in the second half of last season, but by no means does that prove that he’s ready to be a major star in MLB.

Give him another year or two, of consistent success at the MLB level, before making any such claims.

 

While Markakis still has a lot to prove, I think he showed consistent improvement throughout last year. He was also moved up in the lineup and perfromed admirably. You have to look at his progression. He kept getting better where he reached his peak in August.

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When people talk about a player being rushed to the majors, it's usually because they aren't yet capable of doing well there. When some players do poorly, their confidence is damaged.

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While Markakis still has a lot to prove, I think he showed consistent improvement throughout last year. He was also moved up in the lineup and perfromed admirably. You have to look at his progression. He kept getting better where he reached his peak in August.

 

good post. joe was mostly trying to take a swipe at the O's by belittling NM. I wonder if he was as critical of DJ his first year

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Daniel Cabrera pitched just 27 innings above Delmarva before being promoted. It's a good thing he didn't have to work on his control when he was recalled. Oh, right.

 

If you look at Matt Riley's innings pitched by year, it's pretty clear that he should not have been promoted in 1999. The fact that he has had numerous arm surgeries can't strictly be blamed on that, but treating a top pitching prospect so carelessly really said a lot about the organization at that time. Ray Miller is a big believer that if a pitcher has the stuff, there is no reason to baby him. Of course, Miller knows more about pitching then I'll ever dream of, but seeing the inning progression really makes you pause.

 

As has been discussed in other threads, not rushing a player is also important in terms of maximizing the six years that you control a player. Having Markakis struggle the first two months of the year allowed him to be a free agent one year earlier. Nobody might care right now, but it would suck if that became a problem five years from now.

 

Loewen's situation is a little different. He signed a major league contract, so he had to be on the 25 man roster on Opening Day 2007. I would've preferred him spending all of 2006 in the minors, but the fact that he was promoted, learned what he needed to work on, worked on it back in the minors and performed better upon his recall does make me put stock in Mazzone.

 

I still can't believe Penn and Fiorentino were recalled in 2005. Desperation can bite you back sometimes, I suppose...

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One player I remember who melted down in the Majors was a pitcher named David Clyde, he had a ton of talent but he cut a deal that got him a major league contract and very little time in the instructional league. He lasted 5 seasons and was 18-33. I think confidence is the key factor and once it's destroyed it's difficult to restore.

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More than $24K was spent on his arm to fix it.

 

the 24K meant karat. I may have used the wrong abbreviation. but I think that's how he spelled it on the vanity plates on his car. he said his parents bought him the car and put those plates on it, but I never believed that story. I find it hard to believe that the kids parents decided to buy him a surprise brand new car with egotistical plates a week after he signed his MLB contract. that seemed more like the actions of an 18 yr old kid who thought he was the new Nolan Ryan.

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Matt Riley was rushed to the majors. if I'm remembering correctly, the O's had a set of circumstances (injuries and a couple double-headers from make up games) they were out of arms and brought him up to fill a hole.

 

at the same time, he had been making some noise in the minors and there was an obvious desire by the FO to see him succeed and stay up with the big club.

 

I don't know if this had a negative impact on how his career turned out though.

it's more likely that he never actually had a "24K ARM"

 

Yes, I forgot about him. Last I remember he was in the Dodgers organization. Is he still in basesball?

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Ponson, Matos, Bigbie and Hairston: more time in minors would not have made a difference in these cases. Can't make a purse out of a sow's ear.

 

As for Loewen and Penn, pure speculation that they have been rushed. I think the exposure Penn has gotten at the major league level, will help him know what he needs to work on in the minors. Same for Loewen. I think Loewen showed a lot by the steady improvement after being called up last year.

 

Bottom line, if a player has the intangible things that make a major league standout, you won't know until they get there.

 

I completely disagree with respect to Penn. He just doesn't belong in ths show at this juncture, and his confidence can't be improving with each start. With respect to the others, who knows, they all came up young 20-22 years old and none of them (too early to tell for Loewen) will make a go of it.

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Wrong I wasn’t trying to take a swipe at no one. I was pointing out the obvious to some folks here, that Markakis has a lot to prove before he is placed on this extremely high pedestal some people seem to have put him on already.

Let the kid prove himself consistently for a couple of seasons before putting in the same sentence with other true stars of the game today!!

No doubt that for a short period of time last season he made great progress and looks to be a good player with a possible great career, but please he’s no where near that status now, but for some he’s already arrived!!

 

BTW when DJ first came to MLB I wasn’t posting on these kinds of sites, but if I had been I would’ve felt the same in his situation, so please get over yourself!!B)

 

 

Nobody, at least in this thread, has called Markakis a star or put him in the same sentence with any stars.

 

The only point that's been made about Markakis is that his performance last year would suggest he was rushed to the majors.

 

It would seem to me that most posters on this board see Markakis as a potential star, but realize he has a ways to go before that happens.

 

Joe's one of the few people on this board talking about Markakis being a major star.

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Nobody, at least in this thread, has called Markakis a star or put him in the same sentence with any stars.

 

The only point that's been made about Markakis is that his performance last year would suggest he was rushed to the majors.

 

It would seem to me that most posters on this board see Markakis as a potential star, but realize he has a ways to go before that happens.

 

Joe's one of the few people on this board talking about Markakis being a major star.

 

Why do you think Markakakis was rushed? Sure he started slow, but he showed an ability to adjust over time (one of the most important qualities of a big league player). It's the player that can't make the adjustments that appear to be the definition of rushed.

 

I'm not sure of your definition of a star, but I do think he will be an all star OF.

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Daniel Cabrera pitched just 27 innings above Delmarva before being promoted. It's a good thing he didn't have to work on his control when he was recalled. Oh, right.

 

If you look at Matt Riley's innings pitched by year, it's pretty clear that he should not have been promoted in 1999. The fact that he has had numerous arm surgeries can't strictly be blamed on that, but treating a top pitching prospect so carelessly really said a lot about the organization at that time. Ray Miller is a big believer that if a pitcher has the stuff, there is no reason to baby him. Of course, Miller knows more about pitching then I'll ever dream of, but seeing the inning progression really makes you pause.

 

As has been discussed in other threads, not rushing a player is also important in terms of maximizing the six years that you control a player. Having Markakis struggle the first two months of the year allowed him to be a free agent one year earlier. Nobody might care right now, but it would suck if that became a problem five years from now.

 

Loewen's situation is a little different. He signed a major league contract, so he had to be on the 25 man roster on Opening Day 2007. I would've preferred him spending all of 2006 in the minors, but the fact that he was promoted, learned what he needed to work on, worked on it back in the minors and performed better upon his recall does make me put stock in Mazzone.

 

I still can't believe Penn and Fiorentino were recalled in 2005. Desperation can bite you back sometimes, I suppose...

 

Wasn't Fiorentino with Frederick the first time he was brought up ? How desperate does an organization have to be to do that, especially when it also amounted to stabbing the AAA players in the back ?

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:D

Why do you think Markakakis was rushed? Sure he started slow, but he showed an ability to adjust over time (one of the most important qualities of a big league player). It's the player that can't make the adjustments that appear to be the definition of rushed.

 

I'm not sure of your definition of a star, but I do think he will be an all star OF.

 

If you remember, Bigbie and Matos both batted .303 one year and were penciled in the starting line ups for the following year. Bigbie actually was a better prospect than Markakis, more power and better foot speed. I don't think the O's handled either of those players well. That happens when too much pressure is placed on a young man. I think the O's penciling Markakis in the no.3 hole is a mistake. I hope I'm wrong.

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Wrong I wasn’t trying to take a swipe at no one. I was pointing out the obvious to some folks here, that Markakis has a lot to prove before he is placed on this extremely high pedestal some people seem to have put him on already.

Let the kid prove himself consistently for a couple of seasons before putting in the same sentence with other true stars of the game today!!

No doubt that for a short period of time last season he made great progress and looks to be a good player with a possible great career, but please he’s no where near that status now, but for some he’s already arrived!!

 

BTW when DJ first came to MLB I wasn’t posting on these kinds of sites, but if I had been I would’ve felt the same in his situation, so please get over yourself!!B)

 

show me where anyone on this thread put him on such a high pedestol. in fact, show me where any rational poster has done that on any thread.

 

what it amounts to is this, you spend most of your time on this board taking pokes at people, posters and the O's. it's a habitual trait of yours. what's even more laughable is that you do the same thing with Cano that you complain about O's fans doing with NM. you have championed Cano as a better player than Roberts, even though he doesn't have a track record to back up you assertion.

 

how do you justify that?

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